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So I run Serpent's Skull. We recently tried adding a alchemist player. While the player isn't doing anything wrong (I think :P), I notice his damage output is just massive compared with the rest (Oracle healer, Paladin, Inquisitor, Monk). This leads to the encounters being hard to balance.
For him a high challenge would instagib the rest of the party. A low challenge would just make him bored.
The main thing is he has all his feats towards bombs and bows. He can shoot from combat, in combat, etc. without penalties. He can then also shoot two bombs with rapid shot (he has some abilities for this and we are 8th level so we figure he can do this). Which is 1D8+3-4 per arrow, 4D6 impact damage and then 8 dmg or so to everyone adjacent, excluding his friends because he can do that as well. :) I don't get saves for half, because shooting attack has a change to miss. Now multiply that damage by two if he hits both (he tends to).
Now I have no problem with strong PCs, but I could really use some advice (advice forum yay) on how to make the alchemist work without having to tell him to 'go cripple yourself' :P
Humm this seems a bit odd to me as a Paladin vs anything evil will outshine most anyone. Inquisitor is also no slouch with bane up. Not much help for the other two though. One bing a healer and the other well... you know a monk.
But to the root of the problem. Archery is very powerful in PF all on its own and can be made even more powerful with little effort as you are seeing. The only thing that can be done really is making encounters that do not favor ranged attacks. Small rooms, Deflect arrows, wind wall and things of that sort.
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Well, for starters, Explosive Missile (The ability to add your bomb to a arrow) and Fast Bombs (The ability to throw multiple bombs in a round) don't work together. Fast Bombs requires a full-round action and Explosive Missile is a standard action.
So he can't possibly shoot TWO bomb arrows a round. He gets 1. Period.
Second, his bomb arrows have to hit regular AC, not touch AC like normal bombs.
Third, use some foes with fire resistance against him. Resist 10 fire will hurt his damage without negating it completely and give the other players the ability to shine. Heck, if it also has DR/5, he's in a LOT of trouble. That's 5 damage off his arrow and 10 off his bomb.
Fourth: Make sure that there are mooks for him to waste his bombs on. Alchemists have a very limited amount of bombs. If the big bad guys have some weak minions with them, they can soak up some of those bombs meant for big bad.
Fifth: Make sure you're not just doing 1 fight a day. Classes like Alchemists are going to look nuts if just do one fight a day because they can just go Hiroshima on whatever you throw at them with impunity. If they have to go through like 4 fights a day, with 4 or so enemies in each fight, he's gonna run out of bombs.
Sixth: Remember that bombs crits work similar to sneak attack. The bomb's damage is 1d6, the rest of the d6 are additional damage that doesn't get doubled. If a 4d6 bomb crits, it's 5d6, not 8d6.
Seventh: You DO get a save for the splash damage. And it's not save for half, it's save to negate entirely.
Eighth: Don't give the Alchemist all day to buff. Make him chose between drinking a extract and shooting an arrow. His mutagen lasts 80 minutes and take an hour to rebrew. Keep track of time. You can wait for his mutagen to be wearing off and then drop a time sensitive mission in their lap.
Ninth: Put something up in his face. Make him take attacks of opportunity for shooting those bomb arrows.
Good catch on Explosive missiles and fast bombs. Not that familiar with the class myself.
The Alchemist is capable of extremely high damage output in a short time a selected few times a day - which is called "going nova"!
If you never bring on more encounters a day or if the party always rests if the Alchemist is OOB then, yes, he will do a lot of damage against most opponents.
That said:
Explosive Missile actually does suck hard because of the "hit AC" instead of "hit touch AC" of normal bombs and this usually means the Alchemist will miss more often than the additional arrow damage is worth.
Elamdri, most of what you say is correct, but...
The bombs class feature explicitly states:
"Those caught in the splash damage can attempt a Reflex save for half damage."
I don't know how you got your interpretation of bomb criticals. I'm a bit unsure about it though.
As written, I can't find a reason for them not to crit, although I do feel they are intended not to be able to critical at all.
I think this because "Splash weapons cannot deal precision-based damage", and although criticals are not technically "precision-based" they are similar.
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Man, I have been misreading that this entire time. Thx!
As for the bomb crits, that is correct:
"On a direct hit, an alchemist’s bomb inflicts 1d6 points of fire damage + additional damage equal to the alchemist’s Intelligence modifier. The damage of an alchemist’s bomb increases by 1d6 points at every odd-numbered alchemist level (this bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit or by using feats such as Vital Strike)."
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Hey all,
This is very interesting. I think I should at least double check his character fully then.
As for the encounters. They do tackle more then one of those a day, though in Serpent Skull at the moment they are:
I also recently made a caster summon dretches (DR/5, resist fire/cold 10) which indeed made him think twice. :D
The Inquisitor does bane a bunch, but then we are talking +2d6 dmg once a round. The paladin does smite very nastily. +14 dmg on the first hit at the moment or something to that amount. Though it all seems to balance out alright. Major bad guys do fear the paladin if they are alone.
This is all interesting stuff that I can definately use. Thanks. :)
Wait didn't you say this is lvl 8? Why isn't your Inquisitor getting 2 attacks a round (Still you have a point both bane and smite are more impressive with a large number of attacks. Like TWF, Archery, or NA builds.)
But yes there seems to be something fishy with the alchemist. Though it very well could be an honest mistake on his part.
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I tend not to impute illegal builds with malfeasance on the part of the build unless I have definitive proof. This game is difficult and it's easy to screw up. Heck, Salindurthas just pointed out a mistake I have been making all this time in the thread.
That being said, it's important to constantly audit your characters to make sure that you're not making a mistake.
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Oh no one is doing anything on purpose :) It is a fairly new player and even our experienced players have issues. We just haven't had a alchemist yet.
They were actually 7 and are now 8. I forgot the inquisitor does do two attacks now. Actually he was quite happy with it.
I used to run a Summoner and every level I'd post the eidolon build here to check and every level there was something wrong. The APG classes are indeed more advanced.
This game is difficult and it's easy to screw up. Heck, Salindurthas just pointed out a mistake I have been making all this time in the thread.
And then you immediately turned around and pointed out an oversight I made! It is indeed easy to overlook, misread, or forget things.
Funnily enough, I corrected you by quoting a paragraph, then you corrected me by quoting the exact same paragraph, haha.
So yes, read through the rules the Alchemist is using just to check. In fact, check every character!
It is less likely, but maybe the Alchemist is doing normal, sensible damage and everyone else is accidentally gimping themselves by misreading Smite Evil or something.
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Does everyone have players who are so sensitive that asking to check a sheet will make them feel picked on?If you are going to check the player's sheet for mistakes, then do it to all players. Nobody will feel picked on.
Simply ask for copies of everyone's sheets.
No need to tell them why either.
No, but they exist.
suggestion: having your group all use google drive (or something similar) to update their characters would give one digital copy they can use for their character and you can look at knowing it is up to date.
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I get digital copies when they update their digital ones, otherwise paper. They tend to destroy their papersheets once in a while (3-4 levels).
@Elamdri: Nope he's a human.
Well, this presents another problem.
A human is not proficient with a bow automatically and neither are alchemists automatically.
So, either he's taken the Grenadier archetype, which gives you a free martial weapon proficiency, or he's taken a feat to get the proficiency, which sucks for Archers because they're feat hungry builds.
The reason the proficiency is important:
A: If he isn't proficient, he can't use explosive missile with the bow. Explosive Missile specifically requires proficiency with the weapon.
B: If he isn't proficient, he's taken a -4 to his attack rolls.
So make sure that he's getting the proficiency from either an Archetype or Feat, otherwise, he's got more problems.
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I'll be sure to doublecheck that as well. I have issues enough making sure the monsters work ruleswise, but I'll check it, or make him check it. We are a mature bunch and we all agree the game is bigger then any of our heads can contain. We are frequently wrong during play. :)
@Asthyril: True, but they usually make copies then use eraser on it etc etc till the paper tears, which is when they decide to update the digital one. I might enforce updating a bit more, but it has not been an issue since I get copies of the physical ones as well.
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One thing to be wary of:
Explosive Missile, while NOT stacking with Fast Bombs, DOES stack with many OTHER bomb discoveries
Unless he's a Gnome Alchemist, with Saboteur Archetype. Check out Complex Bombs discovery.
@Elamdri: Nope he's a human.
So this specific build doesn't use it, but it IS possible.
Side note though: if you want to screw with a bomber alchemist, just deal some STR damage to him/her. It's usually a dump-stat.
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You're right. He wouldn't even need that. Also, I thought all the level 8 discoveries had that asterisk.
As a standard action, the alchemist can infuse a single arrow, crossbow bolt, or one-handed firearm bullet with the power of his bomb, load the ammunition, and shoot the ranged weapon.
The real benefit here, is that you can attach a bomb to a projectile and increase the range.
Drawing the components of, creating, and throwing a bomb requires a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity.
Bombs, by default allow you to do everything necessary in a single standard action to deliver the payload.
When the infused ammunition hits its target, it deals damage normally and detonates as if the alchemist had thrown the bomb at the target.
Explosive Missile also says that everything necessary to deliver the payload can be done in a single standard action.
An alchemist with this discovery can quickly create enough bombs to throw more than one in a single round.
The benefit from Fast Bombs is that you have become efficient at creating bombs and handling the materials, that you're able to go through the motions faster and deliver more payload.
As a GM you have basically 3 options to handle the combination.
Option #1: To my eyes, it seems like the combination of these two is merely altering the visual flavor for how the bomb is delivered. You're shooting them, instead of throwing them. The gameplay mechanics benefit you gain from going out of your way to invest in such a maneuver: more range, in exchange for targeting a higher AC - that's it.
Option #2: You're wasting time, and simply spending standard actions to prep a bomb... then another standard to infuse the bomb to the ammunition and fire it. If you wanted, you could even prep a few of them using a few standard actions, and then blow 'em off using your full round of attacks. Already have Rapid Shot for your bomb throwing? Great, it works for your infused arrows too!
To me, Option #1 seems like it's the intended result of the investment of all the extra class resources. Option #2 seems like a major waste of effort.
And, Option #3 (telling a player they cannot ever do something wild and crazy and imaginative) should absolutely never happen, ever. Just figure out how annoyingly difficult it would be to pull off (see option #2).
what?
As a standard action, the alchemist can infuse a single arrow, crossbow bolt, or one-handed firearm bullet with the power of his bomb, load the ammunition, and shoot the ranged weapon.
i don't see how there's any interpretation here... this ability very clearly requires a standard action to use. an ability that lets you "quickly create enough bombs to throw more than one in a single round" in no way effects the speed with which you can infuse an arrow/bolt/bullet (at least RAW, i suppose you could always houserule it that way- that's not interpretation though)
Yeah I think it's pretty clear you cannot use fast bombs with explosive missile. So that alone cuts your alchemst's damage in half, or at least forces him to get closer and drop the extra weapon damage and just fast chuck the things.