Goblin Squad Member
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Since we train up skills and get abilities before being awarded a Class title (which is all it really is) then that leaves me to wonder on how some of those Class only abilities will be learned.
Beyond 1st level it is easy enough to assume that they could just put in Prerequisite: Class/Level on those kinds of things. For instance, the Paladin's Divine Bond, even if you had all the skills and abilities to unlock it might have a Prerequisite of the Class Title: Paladin 4.
What I'm wondering about are those 1st level class abilities. Take a Sorcerer's Bloodline. Will a character be able to learn what is needed to get a Bloodline without fully committing to becoming a 1st level Sorcerer? On that same track, will learning one Bloodline keep you from learning any others? Remember, any permanent choice a player is asked to make is going to have many noobs screaming for a respec.
In that same vein, will a character be able to learn some Cleric Orisons and 1st level spells without fully becoming a 1st level Cleric? I'm sure everyone would love to tag on a Cure Light Spell that they could swap in to heal up quicker during down time between fights.
Want a little extra damage in combat? Learn how to Rage without becoming a 1st level Barbarian!
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Goblin Squad Member
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There are no classes.
If you train the skills to get barbarian rage you qualify for the 'rage' merit badge.
This does not stop you from the learning skills to get a merit badge qualifying you to cast a cleric spell and then a sorcerer spell.
These merit badges will allow you to place an ability on your action bar.
If all the abilities on your action bar are from the same archetype you will gain a bonus of some type.
If you choose to have abilities from a variety of archetypes on your action bar you will not get this bonus.
I think this answers you question :)
It'll be interesting to see where abilities like cure light wounds, and speed buffs are placed within the merit badge system. Like SOW in EQ, I fully expect some abilities will be a lot more popular then others. Would you train say 18 hours for stealth? Or train say 6 hours to be good with a bow?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I expect there will be basic skills to train at the very beginning that everyone qualifies for. Then there will be some that depend on those you trined, but also the basic skill you didn't train will surely also be availalbe. Then there will surely be some that aren't available unless the character has a definite particular alignment, and maybe others that aren't available if you are wearing metal armor.
It should also tell us something that some higher-end skills will not be available until a town reaches a state that can support its training. I'd hazard a guess that means training facilities get upgraded and that is where we queu up the skills for exp and learn about whatever the gating task is (like finding lore-rich sites).
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Goblin Squad Member
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The way I understand it, everyone kind of starts off on a blank slate. No one is a fighter, wizard, cleric, ect. You are just YOU, and you decide what path to go down, what to train. After you have trained the merits required, you can call yourself, and may get a "class" title, of druid or rogue.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Right, and on that path of learning at the start when everyone is dabbling in everything wouldn't it be foolish not to get Channel Energy, Sneak Attack and Martial Weapon Proficiency?
And how are they going to show the difference between the Druid Animal Companion and the Ranger one? If they don't then the "Ranger" build just got buffer.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Even though there are no classes it's pretty safe to say you probably have to learn lvl 1 wizard spells before you learn lvl 2 wizard spells. So lvl 1 wizard spells is a perquisite for lvl 2 wizard spells, unless there are individual spells. Difficult to say how free the system will be.
I at least hope they don't mix cleric/wizard spells/levels by combining spell casting into one incoherent lump.
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Goblin Squad Member
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These merit badges will allow you to place an ability on your action bar.
If all the abilities on your action bar are from the same archetype you will gain a bonus of some type.
If you choose to have abilities from a variety of archetypes on your action bar you will not get this bonus
So what you suggest is an option which may or may not be better than the bonus you get for an action bar with only one archetype's abiities.
This bonus increases as you have better abilities on your action bar.
I think the idea is that a 'pure' archetype action bar intended to be better than a mixed one.
But go for your life, try it out, I know I like the idea of mixing it up a bit.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It would be great if GW can do a blog explaining how the classless system would work? Include some proposed examples for the more exotic 'classes' such as druids, sorcerers, that begin with very specific special abilities.
GW has done a nice job so far expanding the explanation of PVP stuff (flags, death, bounties, etc). Now we need some improved explanations on how they envisage how they going to support 'classes' in the classless skill system, which is very different to TT Pathfinder PnP version. Especially for those who have not played EVE and completely ignorant of how EVE works. Making references continuously to EVE does not help those who have not played EVE.
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Goblin Squad Member
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These merit badges will allow you to place an ability on your action bar.
If all the abilities on your action bar are from the same archetype you will gain a bonus of some type.
If you choose to have abilities from a variety of archetypes on your action bar you will not get this bonus
So what you suggest is an option which may or may not be better than the bonus you get for an action bar with only one archetype's abiities.
This bonus increases as you have better abilities on your action bar.
I think the idea is that a 'pure' archetype action bar intended to be better than a mixed one.
But go for your life, try it out, I know I like the idea of mixing it up a bit.
This system doesn't sound too bad. It actually sounds good, but I was thinking more in the terms of what available skills we have in the beginning(weapon, armor, shields etc) and how to build our characters from there. How attack bonus and saves relates to being able to cast spells versus not being able to cast spells? How are they going to control blood lines so that people can't have more than one? And will everyone take ie a bloodline power or similar if it grants mechanical bonuses?
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you are unfamiliar with how a classless, real-time skill training system works, take a free trial of EvE Online.
Even though EvE does not have classes, you do not start out with a clean slate. There you start off by picking a basic starter package of low level skills. The same could work here in PFO.
Melee Package
Healing Package
Stealth Package
Magic Package
Trader Package
Etc, etc...........
EvE also uses a certificate planner, with tiered titles to unlock. So you can plan your skill training to get the prerequisite skills you need and to then master the higher level skills to eventually unlock the Elite Certificate and Title.
Skills are trained in real time and use a que system. Entry level skills take just a few minutes to train. The highest advanced skills take over a month. Your skill que can hold up to 24 hours of start times for skills. This does not mean just 24 hours of skill training.
You could have 5 skills that will take 23 hours and 50 minutes and then add a last skill that will take 8 days to train. Now your skill que is set for the next 9 days.
In this kind of a system, there is no need fog a skill respec. We are building characters for years of play, not for 30 days to reach a level cap.
The only kind of respec EvE has is one to change your attributes, redistributing them to train new skill groups faster.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So what you suggest is an option which may or may not be better than the bonus you get for an action bar with only one archetype's abiities.This bonus increases as you have better abilities on your action bar.
I think the idea is that a 'pure' archetype action bar intended to be better than a mixed one.
But go for your life, try it out, I know I like the idea of mixing it up a bit.
In this system, a pure archetype would be outplayed by a mixed archetype, if there was not a buff for sticking to a single archetype. Mixing archetype abilities would lead to synergies, and the buff to having a single archetype slotted takes away the advantage.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you are unfamiliar with how a classless, real-time skill training system works, take a free trial of EvE Online.
Even though EvE does not have classes, you do not start out with a clean slate. There you start off by picking a basic starter package of low level skills. The same could work here in PFO.
Melee Package
Healing Package
Stealth Package
Magic Package
Trader Package
Etc, etc...........EvE also uses a certificate planner, with tiered titles to unlock. So you can plan your skill training to get the prerequisite skills you need and to then master the higher level skills to eventually unlock the Elite Certificate and Title.
Skills are trained in real time and use a que system. Entry level skills take just a few minutes to train. The highest advanced skills take over a month. Your skill que can hold up to 24 hours of start times for skills. This does not mean just 24 hours of skill training.
You could have 5 skills that will take 23 hours and 50 minutes and then add a last skill that will take 8 days to train. Now your skill que is set for the next 9 days.
In this kind of a system, there is no need fog a skill respec. We are building characters for years of play, not for 30 days to reach a level cap.
The only kind of respec EvE has is one to change your attributes, redistributing them to train new skill groups faster.
Already knew most of this, but I think it'd help a lot of people, especially ones unused to this type of game, if information like this was posted more places.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you are unfamiliar with how a classless, real-time skill training system works, take a free trial of EvE Online.
Even though EvE does not have classes, you do not start out with a clean slate. There you start off by picking a basic starter package of low level skills. The same could work here in PFO.
Melee Package
Healing Package
Stealth Package
Magic Package
Trader Package
Etc, etc...........EvE also uses a certificate planner, with tiered titles to unlock. So you can plan your skill training to get the prerequisite skills you need and to then master the higher level skills to eventually unlock the Elite Certificate and Title.
Skills are trained in real time and use a que system. Entry level skills take just a few minutes to train. The highest advanced skills take over a month. Your skill que can hold up to 24 hours of start times for skills. This does not mean just 24 hours of skill training.
You could have 5 skills that will take 23 hours and 50 minutes and then add a last skill that will take 8 days to train. Now your skill que is set for the next 9 days.
In this kind of a system, there is no need fog a skill respec. We are building characters for years of play, not for 30 days to reach a level cap.
The only kind of respec EvE has is one to change your attributes, redistributing them to train new skill groups faster.
Oh. The packages system sounds really boring, but I guess it can't be helped to get such a classless system up and running. But I hate meta-game-roles to begin the game with...(To give up fantasy classes for meta-game-classes... yack.)
Even though it sounds boring that a character can learn all the skills in game but is restricted in using them through other means sounds meaningful.
But there are issues like, at some point we'll have all the mages with arcane armor mastery and wearing light armor unless spell casting is more restricted some how.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I just am wondering if they will put in blocks. say if you train Bloodline: Dragon it blocks you from training any other Bloodline: x. Then again you might be able to find a quest that will allow you to awaken another bloodline if you have a specific bloodline to begin with.
I am wondering about cross-classing/multi-classing in a classless system. Considering some of the prestige classes in Pathfinder allow you to combine a multitude of abilities. I just hope they do not allow some of the later 3.5 supplemental prestige classes.
The multiple low-level abilities will not make a very powerful character at any point. Dipping into each ability chain will make you the jack of all trades, but the specialist will bypass you. I just hope if players are jack-of-all trades that they get a title for it. That way I know I am not getting a true fighter or wizard in my group.
The Ranger/Druid animal companion could be based on if it was one of the first things you train like a druid, or if you trained somethings prior to it. It could be based on your level of experience when you started to train the ability. Say you started training animal companion at 0xp. Then you would have the maximum benefit of it compared to someone who starts training it at say 4000xp.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There is going to be a specific "Class Ability" ability slot which is where things like Animal Companion, and such will go. Since characters can only slot one ability in that slot, its where you will be able to stick things like Bloodlines, Animal companion vs Domain, and so on.
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Goblin Squad Member
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But there are issues like, at some point we'll have all the mages with arcane armor mastery and wearing light armor unless spell casting is more restricted some how.
I would be very surprised if the devs just got rid of the armor restrictions on arcane casters. Just as I will be surprised if Druids can wear metal or Monks Plate armor.
I just don't see that happening. The mage would at least have to change clothes.|
Goblin Squad Member
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But there are issues like, at some point we'll have all the mages with arcane armor mastery and wearing light armor unless spell casting is more restricted some how.I would be very surprised if the devs just got rid of the armor restrictions on arcane casters. Just as I will be surprised if Druids can wear metal or Monks Plate armor.
I just don't see that happening. The mage would at least have to change clothes.
I could see an Arcane Armor Training ability that could be learned as a feat to reduce Arcane Spell Failure by 10% or so, allowing you to wear leather or use a buckler and still cast spells since that ability is in PnP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is going to be a specific "Class Ability" ability slot which is where things like Animal Companion, and such will go. Since characters can only slot one ability in that slot, its where you will be able to stick things like Bloodlines, Animal companion vs Domain, and so on.
So the arcane armor training and mastery will probably also be something that has to be tied to the action bar for it to take effect. I think I like this system :)
I just am wondering if they will put in blocks. say if you train Bloodline: Dragon it blocks you from training any other Bloodline: x. Then again you might be able to find a quest that will allow you to awaken another bloodline if you have a specific bloodline to begin with.
There's nothing in the Eve skill system that prevents either of these, so yes, I could see them both happening if the Devs want them to. :). I kind of doubt they will worry about blocks though, as you only get 1 hot key slot to put such abilities they don't need to block them.