Polymorph ability DCs and Wild Shape


Rules Questions


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Polymorph rules wrote:
The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.

That's easy enough to determine when you are casting Beast Shape or a similar spell, but what about when you are wild shaped?

If my druid turns into a behemoth hippopotamus, what is the DC for his trample attack?

Is it DC 15 + Wisdom modifier (since beast shape III is a 5th-level sorcerer/wizard spell)? Is it 10+HD+Strength modifier (which seems to break the polymorph rules)? Or is it something entirely different?

Liberty's Edge

I recall a post by SKR saying that generally the DC of a SU ability is 10+1/2 appropriate class level+appropriate characteristic modifier but I haven't found it.
Originally it was linked by Cheapy to one thread I was reading, maybe he can help you find it.


Wildshape says what spells it functions like. I don't think that's unclear here, you treat it as the spell.

I do think it's wierd that physical-stat derived DCs, such as trample, end up using WIS or Caster Stat to determine their DC in Polymorph, which goes against the otherwise standard paradigm for Polymorph, that your own base physical scores (boosted by the spell/effect) are relevant for the ultimate physical power of the Polymorph form. a druid who optimized for STR at the expense of WIS would have superior STR attributes in Wildshape forms for just about every area EXCEPT STR-derived DCs. stuff like con-derived Poison is more plausible to derive from casting stat, but trample?

anyways, the RAW is clear here.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Quandary wrote:
Wildshape says what spells it functions like. I don't think that's unclear here, you treat it as the spell.

So is the DC based off of Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma? It is a sorcerer/wizard-only spell after all.


i guess it doesn't state it diretly, but as a druid, which is the class granting the ability, your casting stat is WIS, so 'your DC for the PM spell' would be based off of WIS. that the spell is normally on the sorceror/wizard list is irrelevant to what YOUR casting stat is (and going by that metric wouldn't resolve anything, since different characters with it on their spell list could potentially use INT, WIS, CHA or even CON AFAIK). you kind of need to accept the path that is the shortest and that actually works without problems, choosing some interpretation that just DOESN'T result in a clear outcome is just probably not the intended interpretation.

i guess it's worth posting to Errata, that it doesn't specify what stat is used for the Su ability DC. lack of a mentioned 'caster stat' shows up in several other Su abilities AFAIK, such as granted by monsters, etc. some of those you can 'derive' from stat blocks, but that isn't always possible to do for every case.


It's written in the Universal Monster Rules under Trample.

Quote:
The save DC against a creature's trample attack is 10 + 1/2 creature's HD + creature's Str modifier

So as written, it is 10 + 1/2 character level (not druid level) + STR.


Polymorph rules over-ride that. (as RD alluded to in his first post)

Quote:
A polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature... they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature... each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses... The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.


Isn't the whole difference though between wild shape and polymorph? With polymorph you appear to be the creature, but with wild shape you actually are the creature?

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