I am phttp://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/ultimateMagicWordsOfPower .htmllanning on making a fairly Low-Magic Setting. I am looking at variant rules to increase the feel.
So far I am thinking:
-Vigor & Wound Points.
-Armour as DR.
-Words Of Power.
-Piecemeal Armour.
-A Modified Version of 3.5's Class Defense Bonus.
-Modular Spell Slots[link unavailable]
Anyone have other ideas? Anyone Know how this might work with Called Shots added in?
(Bump)
& I guess this technically fits in the Homebrew Category... Though I was asking for Advice on how to design this style of campaign.
For a low magic setting, how exactly do the Words or Power fit in?
Personally, I think it seems like they're not quite as strong as their normal counterparts, but I'd call them pretty close for the most part.
I think it is more of the smaller selection and they seem more primal in their use. Plus unless the player knows the system in & out they won't be as powerful as normal. If you look it also can make them more versatile.
It is also a nice way to make Final Fantasy Style Magic.
Which I should say that is the style of Magic I want for this Particular Setting.
I'd like to suggest that instead of Pathfinder you use Iron Heroes (short thread). It's also d20 / 3.5 based, but it's specifically designed around magic being very rare and not necessarily a good thing. You can probably pathfinder-ize it fairly easily if you feel a need to, but it's much easier to make a low-magic game when you start from low-magic rules than to try and strip the magic out of a higher magic game.
To quote from the introduction:
Iron Heroes focuses on action and adventure. Your character’s talents and abilities, rather than his equipment, determine his capabilities. Magic in Iron Heroes is a dangerous force, one that is as likely to harm its user as his enemies.
Iron Heroes is quite nice! Presumably, however, Azaelas still wants to play Pathfinder. Conversion wouldn't be that hard, and I might be interested in helping convert if someone were to take up such a task. I really like some of the Iron Heroes stuff.
Ban supernatural barbarian powers and rogue talents? Ban monks (or at least all but the martial artist)[this also makes the monk like the FF monk]? That rule where cure spells only convert lethal damage to nonlethal?
Well the common enemies for the Campaign will be lower level Orcs (reflavored as Goblinoids), Hobgoblins, Goblins, Ogres, & various other minor things.
I am loosely basing this world on Middle Earth during Sauron's First Rise to Power.
"Magic" Items and such are easily made, as I am making the feats use character level instead of caster level. But actually casting a Spell is hard to learn & master.
@Helaman: What do you mean by 'Midnight'?
Basically, by low magic I mean Spellcasters are Rare.
I think it is more of the smaller selection and they seem more primal in their use. Plus unless the player knows the system in & out they won't be as powerful as normal. If you look it also can make them more versatile.
Personally, I do think they look quite cool, and I want to try them out sometime. And actually, at lower levels, they seem in a couple regards to be better than equivalent spellcasting. Seemed to me that their power tends to fizzle out on the higher end of things though. I couldn't really picture a combination of words for a level 9 wordspell that actually equates in power to level 9 spells. Then again, I haven't actually used them personally, just looked over them, so I could be off on that.
Anyway, that's neither here nor there. I was just wondering with the low magic setting, keeping casters as... well, casters with words seems to leave things pretty close to how they are anyway.
Of course, if that's the way you picture the setting, then all's good.
Yeah, in order to have low magic, things that could be magical need to be explained away as less so.. And magic can be as powerful as you like, as long as it's NOT in the hands of the player from the start.
For example, having skilled craftsmen craft supernaturally good (aka, enhancement bonuses that finally make sense why they don't stack with masterwork..) weapons and armor is cool and flavorful to a low magic setting.
Having skilled craftsmen craft a cloak that allows you to dimension door in a puff of smoke? Decidedly less so.
Also, I would restrict spellcasting classes to level 5 accessible prestige classes (as in, make the base classes into prestige classes), if you actually want to make magic feel special. You'd have to bump up their progression if you wanted them to be just as strong as Warriors (or perhaps make a "eldritch knight" style thing available from level one, so that when you take your first level of your prestige class, you have 3 spellcasting-levels transfering in). But, if this is supposed to be low magic.. Spellcasters should be valuable based on how rare and unknown their powers are (the rarer a power is, the less enemies should be prepared for it), not the fact that only so many are allowed, but those ones are still pretty much powerful as normal (minus a little bit from wordcasting).
Level one access to spellcasting should be reduced to a series of Eldritch Heritage like feats, with those being the requirements for entering said prestige classes. One could be say, Channel Energy for getting into Cleric, or gaining access to a wizard school or witch hex. Of course, swapped for free feat upon actually GETTING said class.
This means that any spellcasters will actually FEEL rare. Getting to be a spellcaster will be TOUGH, and your power will be mainly based on how rare it is and how well you use it and how valuable such a rare resource is, rather than "Hey guys, I applied early to get a spellcaster slot. RAWR FIREBALL!"
I have to agree that words of power are not really a downgrade for casters.If anything it allows you to make some fairly powerfull spells if I understood them correctly.
"Boost Selected Force Shield Accelerate" would be a 4th level spell for instance,compare that to Blessing of fervour .The whole system seems to actually improve action economy for casters.And thats not a good thing for a low magic setting.
Have you thought about banning full casters completely?
Yeah, I'm personally inclined to say that if you want low magic, dropping full casters is probably a good start. I'd be hesitant on 6th level casters even, though 4th level might not be bad.
Hmm... I suppose you might be able to convert some spellcasting classes into lower progression if you don't want to outright ban them, but most class abilities would still be overtly magical. It's probably easier to say leave them alone.
"Boost Selected Force Shield Accelerate" would be a 4th level spell for instance
Incidentally, I may be incorrect on this, but I think "Selected Force Shield Accelerate" would be 4th level. Boosting it would move it to 7th level as Boosting the Selected causes all of the effect words to count as 3 levels higher. 4 and 5 for Force Shield and Accelerate, which equates to 7th level (5/5)... I think that's how it works anyway?
Well I have not seen that boost increases the level of the spell.Its listed as zero level .This did seem wrong to me but I thought the fact that you can use metawords only a limited number of times per day is the catch about them.
Where are the level increases for metawords listed?Boost has level 0 in its description while careful has level 1 and irresistible has level5(thats just absurd BTW).
.
Selected: "This boosted target word increases the level of all the effect words in the spell by 3 levels."
-So, this makes all the effect words be treated as +3 when this is boosted.
Burst: "Boosting this target word increases its level by 2."
-This makes the actual Burst word +2, but iirc, target words are kept separate from the level of the spell. Their level is the minimum spell level they can be in. So, to use the +2 boosted Burst target, it needs to be at least a level 3 spell, instead of level 1.
Barrier: Has a boost, but no level increase on it.
-So... this is as simple as putting the boost word on it, when you're using metawords.
Boost has level 0 in its description while careful has level 1 and irresistible has level5(thats just absurd BTW).
As for metawords, I think they work like target words, in that the level listed is the minimum spell level to use them in it. Irresistible can't be used in 4th level or lower spells, but the actual increase is +2 to all effect words in the spell (listed in the description of irrestible).
Yeah, they seem to have used the term 'level' for quite a few things in wordcasting with several different meanings and restrictions :/
Edit: Even more fun when boosting effect words individually too, which may or may not have increases to their levels as well *eye roll*
If you want to have a low magic setting(as in, no high level casting) then just remove full casters. However, if you actually want to remove magic items, you will need to either roll the big six into character level, or adjust all the monsters DC's and ability scores.
I was thinking about running a low-magic campaign as well. I agree with Vigor/Wounds and Armor as DR, but I would probably avoid Piecemeal Armor out of personal preference. I really like the idea of empowering mundane items to be greater masterwork weapons and armors.
Getting rid of full casters like Cleric, Druid, Oracle, Sorcerer, Witch, and Wizard makes sense.
Leaving mid-level casters like Bard, Inquisitor, Magus, and Summoner could be iffy, but I would personally keep Alchemist since their "spells" are actually "infusions" that can blend easily into the campaign setting.
Low-level casters like Paladins and Rangers would be fine, but I wouldn't mind if there was an arcane representation of low-level casters, like a hexblade or something.
Basically, getting new spells for any Prepared Caster that needs a spellbook or equivalent is going to be difficult. Also just to cast a spell is going to require a concentration check of 10+(Spell Level x2). If they fail the check then they take a Wound for each Level of the Spell. The exception to this is the Alchemist.
How these are going to be fluffed is they are made to be superior through Magical Imprinting and such.
Like that +2 Goblin Bane Greataxe the players find might be covered in Dwarven Runes that read as a short poem about the Axe being forged during the War of the Black Citadel and that it was mostly used by a famous Dwarven Regiment that was wiped out during that war. Should the Axe be dispelled, suppressed, or such the writing disappears as the writing bonds the Magic to the Axe.
Basically all Magic Items must have some sort of story to them. Even the crafted ones will have a story on them. Even if it is just the Dwarves crafting a Magic Sword for the Fighter it will have some form of story on it. Even if it is just describing who the blade is made for.
Arcane Casters are more common for Elves.
Divine Casters are more common for Dwarves.
Witch, Bard, Inquisitor, Magus, Summoner, & Alchemist are more common for Humans.
Any Caster needs a good backstory. Summoners are going to need a very good backstory and their pacts are going to be Drakengard style in that they have to take an Oracle's Curse. The Synthesis Archetype will need a excellent backstory. The Master Summoner is going to be banned.
Paladin & Ranger are classified as Martials for this.
Also I should note that Humans, Dwarves, & Elves are going to be the more Common races. There will be Half-Elves & Half-Dwarves though. So that is one reason why I am leery about removing to many Casters.
Currently Humans are limited in Divine Casting. This is in exchange for them having easy access to Early Firearms. Though the races are nicely mixed in together.
The way the world is all races are nicely intermixed but each race has their cultural preferences.
Dwarves favor Divine Magic, the "Heavier" Traditional Weapons, & Defensive Warfare.
Elves favor Arcane Magic, the "Lighter" Traditional Weapons, & Skirmishing Warfare.
Humans favor Mixing Martial and Casting, all Types of Weapons, & General Warfare.
If that makes sense...
For character damage I sort of simplify (I think) wounds and vigor a bit, more to make it easier for my players to conceptualize the "damage" their characters take, but also because of an adjustment I made to the Heal skill to make up for my having banned wands of cure which take a lot of threat out of longer dungeon crawls in my opinion.
-Above 50% health, your character is being worn down. You aren't being stabbed, you aren't being bludgeoned, you're dodging and blocking and getting minor scrapes, sand in your eyes, etc. that makes you less able to continue fighting.
-Below 50% health, your character is being injured. You're being stabbed, you're being bludgeoned, the attacks you would have dodged are barely getting in, those you would have blocked are hurting your arm or being bashed aside. They've adapted to your fighting style, or you're simply being overwhelmed by superior ability.
-Critical hits always count as being injured, however to keep things simple I just treat these like normal hits on the character. If I wanted to, though, it wouldn't be hard to just have two separate health pools like Wounds/Vigor uses. This is really more for picturing combat and for my critical cards that I love so very, very much to be fun.
-Changes to Heal: after each encounter any player may take one Heal check, gaining hit points equal to 15 - Heal DC. This only applies when the character is above 50%, and any player may use this on any other player, still only once after each encounter. I've found this makes the healers feel less like walking bandaids with their spells (but their higher Heal checks also come into play), it lets parties without any kind of healing keep up with more drawn-out sessions where characters have few chances to actually rest for extended periods, and it gives the Heal check something to do.
-Heal checks don't work below 50% in this way, and the character must either get to 50% or above through natural daily replenishment or magical healing. I've found it keeps my players from just chugging potions (which I also limit to 5 per character, just because having a bag of holding with 200 of them is easy to do at level 8 and, again, makes the games less threatening).
In a campaign with low-magic, especially with less healing potions, this type of deal might be fun. I don't have much experience with Wounds/Vigor, so I may just be repeating a lot of what's already there, but my players definitely play differently when I have these rules out. They're much more likely to spend their skill points carefully now, invest in high-grade healing potions for out of combat, and it also makes the encounters feel more threatening when they can't just whip out their Cure Light flamethrowers and go to work after every scratch.
It also makes describing combat more interesting. Saying, "The orc's greataxe slams into your shield, making your arm tingle," when the guy's at above 50%, or, "The Orc slams the butt of his greataxe into your head, keeping you off-balance long enough for his small goblin ally to stab you in the leg with a dull shank," once they get below 50%.
Characters wrapping their twisted ankles, putting bandages over cuts, stretching out their shield-arms and double-checking armor straps after combat is also a fun way of visualizing what the PCs do after a fight, instead of sit in a circle while the cleric sprays them with curative wands.
Combining Vigor & Wounds with Armour as DR should help in the describing department.
Vigor is restored fully everyday but Wounds are restored slowly.
Think of it as like the Fatigue & Health from Dragon's Realm. Where Fatigue is used for everything from basic damage to casting spells/using abilities. While Health is only reduced by Poisons, Critical Hits, converting into Fatigue to use for skills, and other various effects.
In this setting cure wands/potions are going to be rare. But seeing as WBL will be 3/4 its normal speed they are going to be wanting other things.
& this right now isn't taking into account most of my other numerous Houserules. Which I am sure some people have seen some of these in the Akademae Thread.
@Pheoran Armiez: I forgot to mention that I always include Piecemeal Armour as it helps buff Martials. Plus it leads to some interesting PC Descriptions.
I'm working on a system that I intend to support both low and high magic. Yes, that sounds scary to do. But in no case is it intended to support high magic itemry.
Basically my intended distinction is just in what disciplines are available. In a low magic setting, the "do crazy things with fire" discipline does not exist. In both a low and a high magic setting, the "do crazy things with a sword" discipline exists. (I intend them to be roughly equal in power and vastly different in flavor.)
As far as items, I'm instituting a few tiers of masterwork, generalized to a mix of higher quality workmanship and higher quality materials. Magic in the crafting generally just leads to moving up on that scale. And the occasional actually magical weapon will be along the lines of just one property. Not necessarily with a story, just because so many will be from so long ago that the story is lost. But they won't be a +3 flaming vorpal greatsword. They'll be just a high quality (+2) flaming greatsword. The only part that's explicitly magical is the flaming property; the high quality may be entirely materials and skill, or it may involve magic, but there's no functional difference between a magecrafted longsword and a mundanely crafted one of similar final quality.
That is how I am having crafting explained in my world when it came to the flat +X bonuses.
And this thread has kind of gotten off-topic.
I just wanted to know if those Variant Rules would work good for a Lower Magic Setting.
Also you will see my homebrewed Class Defense Bonus System linked in my Google Docs.
Having done this exact thing, let me give you some advice from my experience. I ran an E6 game with Wounds and Vigor, Armor as DR, Words of Power, Called Shots, and a somewhat changed Incantation Magic from Unearthed Arcana. In addition, I had a special Acrobatics as AC rule and a Parry rule that worked out well. Here's the strengths and weakness of doing this.
- The issue with the Class Defense Bonus System is that with that plus the Armor as DR, it really makes Full Plate Fighters and Paladin too tanky. I'd have to see how you change it, but having a high AC and a DR of 9 early in the game makes you pretty unstoppable.
- Armor as DR makes having a Dex-based melee fighter highly sub-optimal. They are now easier to hit every turn and even with the DR, they usually do not have the health to take any hits. So I made the rule of Acrobatics as AC, where each rank of Acrobatics gives you a +1 Dodge bonus to your AC, so long as you wore light armor (or light armor equivalent). Wasn't very broken, although perhaps at higher levels it might be a bit much. But it was E6 so it didn't go past level 6.
- In addition, I added the Parry maneuver. Essentially, you use up one of your attacks of opportunity to parry a move with an attack roll. You have to meet or beat the attack roll that was used against you. Grabbing Combat Reflexes allowed you to make an amount of parries equal to your Dex. However, for every size category larger a creature is compared to you, you get a -4 to that parry roll. In addition, for every iterative parry you made before your next round, you received a cumulative -5 to the roll. I also had three feats for Parry. Improved and Greater Parry (removes the first and second iterative penalty respectively and gives you a bonus) and Riposte, which allows you to, as an immediate action, use up an attack of opportunity at your highest BAB to strike the person back after a successful parry. It worked out well and didn't slow down combat once people got used to it.
- Words of Power is the right level of magic for it. I found it not too powerful and still a very fun and fresh take on magic. Was definitely a good choice. Issue with this was that Words of Power are a little weaker and some players that really like caster may balk at the idea of playing this.
- The Incantation Rules from Unearthed Arcana were amazing. They allowed usage of 4th level spells and higher (normally not allowed in E6) but they A) take more time and B) allow non-casters with magical knowledge to use these rituals. I did tone down the DC on some of the spells, but overall, it was fun and felt more thematic for my setting.
- I had some rules for E6+ that I will have to show later since I'm not at my home computer. I basically refereed to levels 1-5 as your Journeyman levels, with 6 being a master and 7-8 as grandmaster. I had two simple experience tracks that allowed classes to get their class features as feats gradually. So, a paladin about X amount of XP could pick up a lay on hands, or another spellcasting level, or a Hit Die. Was simple and while some classes did get certain class features before others (because they'd have more), all players were considered Level 7 at the same time. The reason I did this was to allow converting to standard d20 to be easier and I felt that it was better to just slow down the progression, but spread out the rewards instead of making them wait for it. In addition, it made calculating APL easier than just adding feats for original E6, since it is still effectively them leveling.
- Piecemeal wasn't very good. Too complicated to add with Armor as DR. I'd suggest leaving it out honestly.
- Wounds and Vigor and Armor as DR were good. It does make your players a bit more durable early on, but they also get a bit more mileage on HP and can have longer adventuring days. Combat does last a little longer, usually by a round on average, but it isn't all that bad.
I'll find my PDF for my version of E6 and link it for you to look at. Right now, though, I'm away from my home computer which has it. My setting was a more frontier, Conan-meets-Fafhrd/Grey Mouser-meets-Pirates of the Caribbean setting that took place in a fantasy-styled Caribbean. You had colonists and magic-using natives in a somewhat political tension after a long war. Terrifying pirates, political tension, perilous islands, and horrifying ruins of a lost empire were the themes of the setting. Magic was primal and higher level magic took longer but was still powerful. I also made use of obsidian/asphalt and bone weapons as well as early firearms. It was a labor of love both for myself and the players, though as a warning, it is a decent amount of new rules that established players have to learn so take things slow and don't be afraid to let some mistakes go the first couple games.
Piecemeal Armour seems easy to handle with Armour as DR.
Though that might be because my group has been using it since around 2-3 Months (the time we got access to Ultimate Combat) after it was released.
Are you saying that HP is better or Vigor & Wounds is?
I really like the thought of Words of Power. So will probably put it out as an option for them to vote on.
I am not keen on E6...
My Class Defense Bonus is simply you get Half your B.A.B. Rounded Down with a Minimum of +0 to your Defense Score. It basically gives a Level 20 Fighter a +1 AC over a Full-Plate Fighter in the Normal AC rule system. It doesn't apply to Flatfooted Defense.
I have used them in conjunction with a Normal Pathfinder Setting and they seemed to be nice. So I was curious if this would be as good in a Lower Magic Setting where the Higher Powered Magic (Teleport and Wish) are rare and very valuable.
Piecemeal Armour seems easy to handle with Armour as DR.
Though that might be because my group has been using it since around 2-3 Months (the time we got access to Ultimate Combat) after it was released.
Are you saying that HP is better or Vigor & Wounds is?
I really like the thought of Words of Power. So will probably put it out as an option for them to vote on.
I am not keen on E6...
My Class Defense Bonus is simply you get Half your B.A.B. Rounded Down with a Minimum of +0 to your Defense Score. It basically gives a Level 20 Fighter a +1 AC over a Full-Plate Fighter in the Normal AC rule system. It doesn't apply to Flatfooted Defense.
I have used them in conjunction with a Normal Pathfinder Setting and they seemed to be nice. So I was curious if this would be as good in a Lower Magic Setting where the Higher Powered Magic (Teleport and Wish) are rare and very valuable.
If you can do it, more power to ya.
I prefer Wounds and Vigor. Probably because I'm used to that way from HERO system and it makes it easier for me to have things like assassinations at higher levels.
Right on on Words of Power. Look at Incantations that I linked you. Might be up your alley.
Shame, though with my version of E6, it is really just like normal leveling but slower and spread out a bit more.
Issue with the Class Defense is that again, the skirmishers get the shaft. With Armor as DR, you get hit more often, but can take more damage. However, a rogue or two-weapon fighter or even a ranger would be dropped from AC 18 with a chainshirt or hide armor to AC 14. Remember that even with the AC moved to DR, the values of enemies' BAB and Strength don't get lower to compensate. So people are going to get hit more often. Now, you'll lower the damage output of mooks and weak foes, but for the heavy hitting guys, suddenly your melee dex fighter is made of paper and will drop pretty quickly. Especially when you get into larger monsters that can bypass your DR because they are larger. I feel that the Class Defense Bonus being tied to hit dice neglects the rogue skirmisher majorly. I'd look into adding a dodge mechanic or even using something similar to my Acrobatics as AC idea. As it stands, rogues are going to get whomped the hardest.
Well @ Level 20 d6 get a 5 Defense Bonus, d8 get a 7, & d10/d12 get a 10.
This means their defense is a little better than wearing a Breastplate. Meaning their Defense is larger.
Kind of a worry, did you notice how all DR is bypassed by massive creatures.. That seems like a bad idea, since you need DR against colossal creatures the most. It also has the unfortunate side effect of making Barbarian DR less useful, which is often there only method of soaking massive damage.
Hmm, yeah I can see the defense bonus helping, not sure how I feel about 3/4 classes getting less than full classes. A lot of archetypes in that category rely on their defense. Though, if They are built that way from the get go, maybe it will all work out. I would have to build a couple of guys and see how it would work out.
Barbarian DR Stacks with Armour DR and means Barbarians get some of the Best DR using that system. At least til the Fighter hits Level 19.
Really they end up being about equal overall. Though they Start out a bit lower than AC. Especially since by a strict reading of R.A.W. armour doesn't reduce DEX Bonus to defense only AC. By R.A.I. it does though.
I have used these rules before.
The only reason why I am asking is I haven't dealt with a Low Setting like this once I switched to using the Vigor/Wounds, Armour as DR, Piecemeal Armour, & Class Defense Bonus all together.
Okay, I guess if there were no issues at the upper levels in your test then your probably good. Nothing is really standing out as conflicting.
So far the only confusing moment we had was trying to bring down the power of 3.5's Class Defense Bonuses and then we realized that we could base it on B.A.B. and then it would be easily handled as B.A.B. is. Originally we were just decreasing 3.5's numbers by 2.
So far Monks seem to actually have one of the best ACs using this set of systems. As does a DEX Based Fighter who is wearing nicely made Mithril Piecemeal Armour.
I am interested in the E6 rules you used.
I might use them in the future. I just don't see it for this Campaign world.
Well @ Level 20 d6 get a 5 Defense Bonus, d8 get a 7, & d10/d12 get a 10.
This means their defense is a little better than wearing a Breastplate. Meaning their Defense is larger.
That's good at level 20, but the reality is that your game is starting much earlier than that. Since all enhancements to AC go to DR instead, your actual Defense Score doesn't go up like normal. Even with your Class Defense Bonus, which goes up +1 every two to three levels (mostly three), the average monster's attack will go up one-two every CR. So for example, from level 2 through 6, when the rogue's CDB has gone from +0 to +2, the average to-hit value for average CR monsters has gone up by +8 (+4 to +12). At level six, the rogue may have a Belt of Dex +2, so he's looking at a hopeful 22 Dex (assuming he went 19 Dex at level 1 and put the level 4 ability score bonus towards Dex). Assuming he took dodge, and assuming your CDB of a +2, that makes him have an AC of 19, which at level 6 isn't too high. Most monsters of that CR will need a 7+ on a d20 to hit him.
Now granted, if you have a +1 chainshirt at level 6, you will have DR6/adamatine, so only Huge creatures (which you will encounter) and magic can rock you. Having that does mitigate it some of the damage you'll be getting smacked with, but I feel it isn't enough to make a dex-based character competitive alongside a knight with heavier armor. While they don't necessarily have to be equal and balanced, I feel rogues and low armor fighters/rangers/bards should have something a little more than the d6 guys.
As for the E6 house rules, I'll have to type them up in a much nicer format, but I'm okay with sharing them.
Only the basic Armour AC Bonus goes to DR.
So a +5 Full Plate provides +5 Defense and 9 DR/Armour.
I too would like to see the E6 ruleset you've got. I'm considering running a low-magic E6 game soon.
Ok so this campaign will probably instead be a PbP. So I will probably make it less "Low"-Magic and more "Restricted"-Magic. Similar to from what I understand is something like one of the Dragonlance Setting's Eras.
Any ideas on ways to make this run nice & easy?