Having run a wonderful RotRL game recently, my one suggestion for future designs is to consider having a multi-stage boss fight at the climax of each module. It can be done by the clever DM but it would be even more helpful if it were designed that way. Often bosses and even interesting sub-bosses are presented alone or maybe in a pair. Even CR +5 enemies are not much of a threat to an optimized band of 4-5 players who may have had the chance to recharge or recover and have effectively 4 actions per round vs 1.
For example, the fight with Nualia might be really epic of she had some or most of her minions all with her, instead of picking them off one by one through Thistletop. I'm an old timer, and my favorite series was the 1e Slavelords. Best boss fights ever!
I made the final assault on Karzoug's tower a staged progression, with reinforcements arriving every few rounds. It'd be nice to see AP's include those kind of guidelines and builds. (Forgive me if they have started doing so more recently and I was unaware.)
Karzoug himself would be more interesting not as a straight fight but in stages as well, in which you have to use different stategies or face different obstacles/powers just to get him down to a place he's actually vulnerable. I admit a little influence from WOW here, but hey, it makes sense. In my game the Paladin tanked him while the Torag cleric worked on breaking the Soul lens, so it kind of worked that way, but it could have been better.
I invite you to introduce yourself to Xin.
Feedback of this nature was foremost on my mind when writing The Dead Heart of Xin, and in it you get a tragic, compelling antagonist whose presence directly influences most of the encounters throughout his crystal palace, and ends with a climatic encounter that can go several ways depending on PCs' choices earlier in the book. This includes a "sub-boss" of sorts in an rune giant grave knight, as well as a cadre of minions also encountered earlier in the adventure that make a final appearance. If PCs aren't careful, in fact, they might find themselves biting off more than they can chew if they don't proceed with caution.
What's more, you come to know Xin. You get to see his tragic history firsthand as it unfolds throughout the adventure. By the time you encounter his final form in the Clockwork Reliquary--with a chance to lay him to rest--you'll feel for him, and know exactly why you have to do what you have to do.
I'm proud of the results, and the approach was a direct result of public feedback like this when I was writing the adventure.
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I am a great advocate of including many mooks and special terrain or effects on the battlefield while engagin a boss fight, even started a thread on it a while ago. I think it makes for a better design that makes more sense.
However I am reluctant to agree about the idea of having to go through a set of motions just to make a boss vulnerable. That is because:
1) in many APs there is at least one adventure (1/6th of the entire campaign!) that's geared exactly towards finding a mean to defeat the bad guy - for example, in Rise of the Runelords, the entire 5th adventure is all about acquiring Runeforged weapons. After going through the hussel of an entire adventure, the players would be kind of annoyed that they still have to go dncing around in circles just to FINALLY bloody their knuckles on the BBEG. Let them have a fight, I say.
2) I kind of dislike the "video game" feel of the idea. Every time I see a boss that needs to be taken down in stages I think of the video games of my childhood, like Rayman 2 for example, and that's a big turnoff for me.
Having said that, I believe that bosses should have a greater presence BEFORE you fight them, which could be achieved in mutliple ways and is actualy done quite expertly with Karzoug in RotRL, what with him talking with and fighting against the PCs long before they get to fight his real version.
I have great hope that the final boss of Shattered Star will have a good fight about him...
EDIT: I somehow managed to miss Brandons' post above mine when I made the comment... now that I see it I have to say I am VERY excited!
really looking forward to see what you did there, and really happy to see that something positive is done with input fans are putting in.
My 2 cents: Single opponent boss fights are mostly pointless. The action economy just works brutally in favor of the player characters and at least with the final boss of a campaign it should be quite possible to lose a combat.
Boss fights with multiple minions run into the problem that PCs will probably try to alpha strike the boss, instead of dealing with his minions. Pathfinders system of "there are no tanks" works in its design against blocking off the boss, since there are too many classes which can just circumvent such obstacles with ranged attacks and spells.
While I understand the complaint that a multi-stage boss fight is a bit video-gamey, it is one of the few ways to deplete a parties resources to a point where they have to really struggle, even against a single foe. I used such a mechanic for the final fight of Carrion Crown and it worked out very well.
Oh, and Brandon, to reiterate, I really loved this module. Overall Shattered Star was much, much better than I expected it to be and your module was basically what convinced me that I need to run this AP for at least one of my groups somewhen in the future.
Agree with Ebonstone, I like epic boss fights, that aren't straight up slog fests (not that there is anything wrong with that). Stages can be great, if they're not overdone. And I like there to be multiple ways to "win" as well. Timed events are great too. There are lots of ways to make an encounter unique.
Basically if you're ending a book, you want something unique. I think in many cases Paizo has a accomplished that. But there's always more you can do, such as the Nualia encounter. It's nice when enemies react to the PCs attacking, unlike MMOs.
Count me as a skeptic. I'm not sure D&D (or PF) has traditionally been suited for epic boss fights at the close of an adventure. The nature of PF's ablative mechanics tend to push against it. By the time the PCs have gotten through much of the adventure, their resources are whittled down - they may be low on healing, powerful spells, and hit points - and less able to sustain a really epic encounter.
I think as a campaign arc, rising in a crescendo toward a boss fight works OK. The PCs powers wax as they gain levels and equipment. But that's on a broader, macro scale of reference not a more immediate, encounter-to-encounter-to-boss scale.
I invite you to introduce yourself to Xin.
** spoiler omitted **
I'm proud of the results, and the approach was a direct result of public feedback like this when I was writing the adventure.
I like the sound of that.
Makes me think of some scenes in Dark Souls.
That game is just rending story-wise, and I mean that in a good way.
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Gotta repeat some sentiments from the product page, Brandon: The build-up to that climax really seals the deal. That approach to that character was exactly what I was hoping for. :)
Really knowing the BBEG, whether you love 'em, hate 'em, or just understand 'em to a point, seems to add the most impact to that final battle.
Another vote here for not minding, and actually loving, multi-stage bosses. As long as they're done well and feel natural, that is. I hopefully pulled that off with the final rematch the players had with an NPC in our Crimson Throne game, after the guy had been sniping at them from the shadows throughout the campaign.
Lamm's oversized construct suit eventually took enough damage to crack at the seams, after which the inner construct launched itself into the air on bone-skin wings with a spine-tail while the humanoid pilotless body went berserk. Then the winged construct took enough damage so that it broke down further into a serpentine construct made up of the vertebrae and Rolth's "cockpit". Then he finally had to dimension door out and it turned into a wagon chase across Korvosa while a war was being waged around them.
It seemed memorable enough to the players. :)
Count me as a skeptic. I'm not sure D&D (or PF) has traditionally been suited for epic boss fights at the close of an adventure. The nature of PF's ablative mechanics tend to push against it. By the time the PCs have gotten through much of the adventure, their resources are whittled down - they may be low on healing, powerful spells, and hit points - and less able to sustain a really epic encounter.
I think as a campaign arc, rising in a crescendo toward a boss fight works OK. The PCs powers wax as they gain levels and equipment. But that's on a broader, macro scale of reference not a more immediate, encounter-to-encounter-to-boss scale.
I had actually tested this out a bit by trying Epic (APL +3) encounters in different stages of an adventure. I found that epic encounters tend to be balanced more around the players having somewhat depleted resources by the time you reach them. I found that going through three encounters (one average, one APL+1, and the third APL+2) left the APL +3 challenging without being terribly overpowering. I also tried spacing out the XP and difficulty a bit, making more easy encounters that slowly lead up to the final APL+3 boss. That worked well too. I even went above that and things did obviously get more difficult, but I found throwing recuperating supplies worked. Things like looting the enemy's supply closet for healing potions and wands/scrolls of useful spells is nice. It's still a matter of feel and tweaking, but I found that seems to work.
Gotta repeat some sentiments from the product page, Brandon: The build-up to that climax really seals the deal. That approach to that character was exactly what I was hoping for. :)
Really knowing the BBEG, whether you love 'em, hate 'em, or just understand 'em to a point, seems to add the most impact to that final battle.
Another vote here for not minding, and actually loving, multi-stage bosses. As long as they're done well and feel natural, that is. I hopefully pulled that off with the final rematch the players had with an NPC in our Crimson Throne game, after the guy had been sniping at them from the shadows throughout the campaign.
** spoiler omitted **
ARGH! Mikaze, don't just tease with the awesome. Still hoping for your full write-up of the CotCT finale. :)