Some concerns about the final fight... (spoilers)

[Mercurial]

...the final book, really.

We haven't even begun yet (and one or two of my players are on this board but know not to read my posts), but I'm looking ahead for potential pitfalls as I've seen the likely builds the characters will be using and one in particular I think will prove worrisome.

The group (as outlined in a post below) should prove both capable and formidible, with a Wizard, an Arcane Duelist, a Summoner, a Master Summoner and what looks like is going to be an Archer. I can beef up encounters with little difficulty and there's enough mystery solving to keep everyone entertained... early on the Summoners will prove the most difficult to deal with but fortunately I've got more than a little experience with that.

However in the final champters, the Void Mage looks like he's going top be a beast, specifically with the combination of his Reveal Weakness ability and some Quickened spells - he's going to go Spell Perfection with Suffocate for instance, allowing it to be both Quickened and Extended, and increasing the DC via Spell Focus feats. From what I can see pretty much every BBEG on up to Kourzog himself are going to be VERY vulnerable to that little combo (no doubt as intended).

Now the last thing I want to do is penalize a player for preparing an effective build, especially one that fits his RP concept (he's a mage of the void as in outer space, and leans heavily on spells like Call the Void, Deafness/Blindness, Pit spells and Suffocatation as well as some divination type spells - he has even voluntarily decided to take both fire and air as opposition elements because it fits the character better)... but you can see how this might take a lot of the umph out of many of the final battles. I'd be interested in some thoughts if anyone has them to offer.

Also, as I read the effects of Kourzog's Contingency spell, it says that it triggers as a result of harmful spells that render him unable to act - initially I consider that to be something that inflicts a condition like Dazed, Stunned or Paralyzed - what would your ruling be on whether or not Suffocate falls into that category?

[fffreak9999]

Suffocation would be a sufficient example for his Contingency to kick in. Since it takes away his ability to do pretty much anything.
While suffocating you are unable to do anything except trying to gasp for breath. So in this case I believe it would trigger.

This spell extracts the air from the target's lungs, causing swift suffocation. The target can attempt to resist this spell's effects with a Fortitude save—if he succeeds, he is merely staggered for 1 round as he gasps for breath. If the target fails, he immediately begins to suffocate. On the target's next turn, he falls unconscious and is reduced to 0 hit points. One round later, the target drops to –1 hit points and is dying. One round after that, the target dies. Each round, the target can delay that round's effects from occurring by making a successful Fortitude save, but the spell effect continues for 3 rounds, and each time a target fails his Fortitude save, he moves one step further along the track to suffocation. This spell only affects living creatures that must breathe. It is impossible to defeat the effects of this spell by simply holding one's breath—if the victim fails the initial saving throw, the air in his lungs is extracted.

It would lead to his death if he failed the save vs suffocation. (VERY unable to act :) )

[Mercurial]

That's kind of the direction I was leaning towards, and in truth that interpretation may well be the one needed to make the fight what it should be. I know these guys and I would expect the battle to open something like this:

The Void Mage would hit Kourzog with his Reveal Weakness ability and a Quickened Extended Suffocate while the Arcane Duelist follows it up with Feeblemind (a spell learned through Arcane Bloodline)... which between the two should be able to take out just about anyone - but for obvious reasons one would be dispelled and the other simply fail, giving Kourzog the time he needs to get off his Quickened Timestops. Meanwhile the mounted Summoner and his flying eidolon would go after the blue dragon, while the Master Summoner would send flying summoned creatures after the giants and the Archer would attempt to pick off the nearest immediate threat. Should be a hell of a fight.

That doesn't solve my more immediate problem - countering the incredibly effective Perfected Suffocation spells earlier in book 6 without marginalizing the focus of a player's build. Any ideas?

[Caius]

Given that we needed to get special items in order to effectively breathe at that height in our game (not sure if that's in the core books) I could see giving a round of actions before it kicks in, may two but that would be a pretty severe blow to the spell.

[darkwarriorkarg]

Mercurial wrote:

That's kind of the direction I was leaning towards, and in truth that interpretation may well be the one needed to make the fight what it should be. I know these guys and I would expect the battle to open something like this:

The Void Mage would hit Kourzog with his Reveal Weakness ability and a Quickened Extended Suffocate while the Arcane Duelist follows it up with Feeblemind (a spell learned through Arcane Bloodline)... which between the two should be able to take out just about anyone - but for obvious reasons one would be dispelled and the other simply fail, giving Kourzog the time he needs to get off his Quickened Timestops. Meanwhile the mounted Summoner and his flying eidolon would go after the blue dragon, while the Master Summoner would send flying summoned creatures after the giants and the Archer would attempt to pick off the nearest immediate threat. Should be a hell of a fight.

That doesn't solve my more immediate problem - countering the incredibly effective Perfected Suffocation spells earlier in book 6 without marginalizing the focus of a player's build. Any ideas?

<clears throat>Thassilon was renouned for the creation of Ioun Stones. Might he not have one of these?

[Mercurial]

darkwarriorkarg wrote:

<clears throat>Thassilon was renouned for the creation of Ioun Stones. Might he not have one of these?

I could see that being very useful for one of the BBEG's - perhaps Kourzog himself, provided that they had the opportunity to observe the PC's and see the spell in action... so that's at least one fight the spell won't dominate. Don't think I could use it more than once though, twice tops.

Still, I like the option - it fits thematically, shows the PC's that their tactics can be prepared for. Its a good option if not an all-out solution.

[darkwarriorkarg]

Actually, even cheaper

Intriguing how a low-level power can shut down such an attack.

[marvin_bishop]

I assume that Kourzog will have been scrying on the party since the time they pick up the first Sihedron amulet. If they build a one trick pony and have been using that trick to kill his minions, he'll have defenses against that. Ioun stones, rings of counterspell or perhaps spell immunity cast by one of his Lamias should knock that out. Time is on his side.

[fffreak9999]

Just remember the Necklace of Adaption listed by darkwarriorkarg will not work against Suffocate.

Necklace of Adaption:
The magic of the necklace wraps the wearer in a shell of fresh air, making him immune to all harmful vapors and gases (such as cloudkill and stinking cloud effects, as well as inhaled poisons) and allowing him to breathe, even underwater or in a vacuum.

Suffocate:
This spell only affects living creatures that must breathe. It is impossible to defeat the effects of this spell by simply holding one's breath—if the victim fails the initial saving throw, the air in his lungs is extracted.

The Ioun Stone however will work against the spell.

Plus as marvin_bishop says Karzoug will indeed know of your player's actions and will prepare suitable countermeasures for any very nasty combos.
Just remember he is the big bad evil guy, who has lived for 10,000 years.
He is ridiculously smart, far smarter than any of your PCs. Use any tactic you want, since he should give the players a feeling that they are out of their depth but shouldn't be impossible if they come up with a decent (unused) strategy.

Personally, I would be cautious against Feeblemind, definitely prepare something against that, since while Karzoug is a very strong wizard, he has a penalty to his save against it and will stop him of being any use.

Possible Help:

Give him some sort of instant counterspell method like Ring of Counterspell. Just replace his Ring of Freedom of Movement.

EDIT:

Checked his stat block:

Immortal (Ex) Secrets from ancient Thassilon and the realm
of Leng have allowed Karzoug to sustain his life indefinitely.
Unless slain by violent means, he is immortal. He gains the
+3 bonus to his Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores
for having lived beyond venerable age, yet retains the youth
of a young man and does not gain the penalties to Strength,
Dexterity, or Constitution. This immortality also grants Karzoug
complete immunity to disease and to all forms of madness
(including confusion effects and feeblemind).

[Mercurial]

fffreak9999 wrote:

Just remember he is the big bad evil guy, who has lived for 10,000 years.

He is ridiculously smart, far smarter than any of your PCs. Use any tactic you want, since he should give the players a feeling that they are out of their depth but shouldn't be impossible if they come up with a decent (unused) strategy.

** spoiler omitted **
EDIT:** spoiler omitted **...

Yeah, Necklace of Adaptation is definitely out and I knew about hiks immunity to Feeblemind which is why I said it would automatically fail - doesn't mean my guy won't try it though.

I've often wondered how to effectively play a villain with a 36 Intelligence and plenty of foreknowledge. Theoretically he should truly be unbeatable... theoretically. I'm feeling better about the final battle - still leaves a lot of high level bosses who should go down easy though.

[darkwarriorkarg]

I would go with this trope