| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Long time since I've been around here. Glad to be back, at least for a bit.
So a friend was talking to me about an interesting gunslinger build, and it seems to have promise, but I'm not sure about a few things that seemed a bit iffy. I usually play spellcasters so I've come to the great font of knowledge for your opinions.
Level 7 Build: Gunslinger 6/Alchemist (Firebomber) 1
1. Does the Fire Bombardier ability of the Fire Bomber Archetype for the alchemist give +int bonus damage to the dragon breath alchemical cartridge? The question mainly being, are alchemical cartridges a type of alchemical substance?
2. Is there any way to affect the misfire chance on using dragon breath cartridges?
3. Can you apply deadly aim and point blank shot to the damage dealt by the dragon breath alchemical cartridge (which does not use attack rolls, but rather allows a reflex save for half)?
4. Does the Gunslinger gun training ability provide bonus damage while using the dragon breath cartridges?
If you have answers to any of these questions, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
|
Lemme give it a go...
1) No. The only thing "alchemical" about the cartridges is making the beeswax that seals everything together. Alchemical cartridges are ammunition.
2) I would assume not, other than enchanting the gun itself with Reliable.
3) No, Deadly Aim and Point Blank require attack rolls to work.
4)
Gun Training (Ex)
Starting at 5th level, a gunslinger can select one specific type of firearm (such as an axe musket, blunderbuss, musket, or pistol). She gains a bonus equal to her Dexterity modifier on damage rolls when firing that type of firearm. Furthermore, when she misfires with that type of firearm, the misfire value of that firearm increases by 2 instead of 4. Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), the gunslinger picks up another type of firearm, gaining these bonuses for those types as well.
Not when using the cartridges, no, but perhaps if you can select the type of firearm that makes those AoE attacks.
|
|
Ah. I was replying to the more general question when Jen asked "are alchemical cartridges a type of alchemical substance?"
At 1st level, when a fire bomber throws a bomb that deals fire damage, all creatures in the splash radius take an additional point of damage per die of fire damage dealt. Fire bombers only add their Intelligence bonus to damage from bombs or alchemical substances that deal fire damage. This otherwise works like the alchemist's bomb and throw anything abilities. This ability alters bomb and throw anything.
In this one case it seems like the dragon's breath cartridge and the Bombardier ability would work together.
As to point blank shot and deadly aim...
You are especially accurate when making ranged attacks against close targets.
Benefit: You get a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at ranges of up to 30 feet.
...and...
You can make exceptionally deadly ranged attacks by pinpointing a foe's weak spot, at the expense of making the attack less likely to succeed.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all ranged attack rolls to gain a +2 bonus on all ranged damage rolls. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every +4 thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
So, Point Blank Shot, perhaps.
Deadly Aim, definitely no.
Ah. I was replying to the more general question when Jen asked "are alchemical cartridges a type of alchemical substance?"
At 1st level, when a fire bomber throws a bomb that deals fire damage, all creatures in the splash radius take an additional point of damage per die of fire damage dealt. Fire bombers only add their Intelligence bonus to damage from bombs or alchemical substances that deal fire damage. This otherwise works like the alchemist's bomb and throw anything abilities. This ability alters bomb and throw anything.In this one case it seems like the dragon's breath cartridge and the Bombardier ability would work together.
There is a difference between the game mechanics stating something is an alchemical substance and the flavor text describing it as such. Dragon's Breath cartridges are listed under the ammunition heading not under the listing of alchemical items (like alchemical fire or smoke sticks etc.). So the ability wouldn't trigger for them. 'Flavor' text never trumps the actual mechanical rules in situations like this.
|
|
This twin-barreled shotgun can be shot either one barrel at a time, or both together as one attack.You can fire both barrels as a single attack, then reload as free action because advanced firearm with alchemical cartridge, fire both as single attack, reload as free action, fire both as single attack.
I know that's how it reads in the book. Was pretty sure the double barrelled guns had been errata'd to function similar to the Rapid Shot feat, netting you only one extra attack.
Of course right now I'm on my phone at work and can't find anything.
Isn't there an Errata saying you can't use Alchemical Cartridges with Advanced Firearms?
If there isn't even suggesting it to a GM who actually knows firearms you will literally get laughed at and called an idiot.
Alchemical Cartridges are like Paper Cartridges from the Napoleonic Era.
By R.A.W. an Advanced Firearm takes a Move Action to completely reload to full capacity. It can't be reduced by Rapid Reload or by any other method. EXCEPT maybe the Swift Action Reload of the Gunslingers Deed. And it uses Metal Cartridges as ammo nothing else.
There has been numerous threads on it.
By R.A.W. Rapid Reload would just make the Revolver back to a Move Action as it is a 1-Handed Firearm & a Rifle, Shotgun, etc slower to a Standard Action as they are 2-Handed.
So you are saying that you can make a Metal Version for the same price as a Paper Version and then use that to get a reduced reload time. Would you say that a Metal Cartridge also reduces its Reload Time since it says that it is just a sturdier version of the Alchemical Cartridge? Would you say you can use a Metal Cartridge in a Musket?
Use common sense.
What you are saying is that you could use a Paper Cartridge to load a Modern Rifle.
Modern Firearms encompasses everything from the Lever Actions used during the Civil War to the M16.
I watched a trained gunsmith try using a special Paper Cartridge he made in a classical Bolt Rifle. These rifles are the Metal Cartridge rifles that came about before the Lever Actions and are the best real life representations of Pathfinders Rifles. The rifle literally blew up in his face. The reason? The pressure of the powder's explosion wasn't contained enough for it to propel the bullet forwards. Instead the bolt shattered its Assembly and went back. Taking off most of his ear with it. He didn't learn and tried it again. Lost his eye. The third time it finally killed him.
There are some rifles that are designed to be used with special Paper Cartridges, but they can't used Metal Cartridges without having a major retrofit. They also can't be fired to many times in a row before their seals started to wear-out and needed replacing. That reason is why they saved them for Snipers, Hunting, and Shooting Competitions.
Your right. A Shotgun is less sealed than a Rifle. The difference is the force is sent out to the sides instead of back towards the bolt.
And all of the Napoleonic Era Firearms that shared the same Forge Mark used the same Cartridges. Whether they were Pistols or Muskets. Once things got to the point of Mass Production they started sharing ammo. Only earlier weapons didn't.
Heck, for around 50+ years the U.S. Military Revolvers/Pistols and Rifles/Muskets used the same Metal/Paper Cartridges. Heck, for the earlier Metal Cartridges they used the Mini-Balls of the Muskets. It made it easier for the Military to handle resource distribution and Manufacturing.
And most pistols had larger caliber rounds than a Musket. This allowed a Shorter Range but More Killing Potential. It fell out of practice and they began making the Rounds as similar as possible.
There is no rule saying it's not an alchemical substance however. And even if it was specified as one, it's rather unlikely that it would be listed as an alchemical item due to the fact that it can only be used as ammunition.
Flavor text doesn't trump the actual rules. Flavor text could have just as easily stated it was a mixture of chemicals and said nothing of alchemical substances at which point your post wouldn't exist. It's flavor text, just because it says alchemical in the flavor text doesn't change the fact it is listed as ammunition and not as an alchemical component.
The rules crunch tells you what something is, what you CAN do. And the rather inane argument of 'the rules don't say it doesn't' crops up repeated on the rules forum. If the rules stated everything you CANNOT do, it wouldn't be a functional game, it would be an encyclopedic collection of books that no one would buy. The reality is flavor text doesn't match the actual rules crunch and it happens more than you'd think. That is why the rules crunch take precedence for mechanical balance of the game. Flavor text is there to set a 'mood', not dictate the flow of the game. It means nothing in essence. At this point you are trying to make a build based on flavor text to squeeze out extra damage. The rules crunch doesn't back you up on this however. There isn't any rules crunch to back up your position on that particular point.
Shotgun, Double-Barreled
This twin-barreled shotgun can be shot either one barrel at a time, or both together as one attack. A double shot that fires bullets is inaccurate, and takes a –4 penalty on both attacks. A double shot that fires bullets targets only a single creature and increases the damage of each barrel to 2d6 points (Small) or 2d8 points (Medium) for a total of 4d6 or 4d8 points.
A double-barreled shotgun uses metal cartridges (loaded with either a bullet or pellets) as ammunition.
Ammunition (Firearms): Cartridge, MetalThese sturdier versions of alchemical cartridges serve as the ammunition for advanced firearms. They can hold either bullets or pellets.
Metal cartridges are not "alchemical cartridges" though their flavor text calls them such. They are listed under the various ammunition types for firearms along with other alchemical cartridges, including Dragon's Breath. Since a Dragon's Breath cartridge is listed separately from a metal cartridge, and all advanced firearms require the use of metal cartridges, you may NOT load a Dragon's Breath cartridge in an advanced firearm without a house rule allowing you to make a metal version.
We are discussing RAW here, not house rules. You may not load a double barreled shotgun with an alchemical cartridge to make reloading a free action. It is not in the rules, and rules sets are permissive, not prohibitive unless stated otherwise. The lack of a prohibitive rule doesn't matter. You need a rule allowing you to do it.
You need an early firearm to use an alchemical cartridge (specifically a Dragon Pistol, Blunderbuss or Culverin to use a Dragon's Breath cartridge), and it will work just fine combining rapid reload and an alchemical cartridge to reload as a free action, but you will have a higher misfire chance unless you can reduce it with something like Reliable.
@Aldarionn: Thank You. I am horrible at wording things when it comes to these rules...
Thanks for the input guys. :D