| Umbranus |
That very much depends on what you can spare, the feat and the skill points or the weapon enchantment.
The enchantment has the drawback that it is just this one weapon. If you find a better one it doesn't help anymore.
The feat has the drawback that it is a houserule and you can't ever play this pc in a different game because he's no longer compatible to the rules.
| james maissen |
If I'm using a rapier and allowed to apply the feat "Dervish Dance" to it, is it better to just buy the "Agile" weapon enhancement or is the feat better?
FYI: I'm a fighter/rogue on my way to duellist.
You can ask the same question about improved crit vs keen.
It's balanced, so weigh each for your PC in particular and make the call.
-James
| Threeshades |
Depends on the kinds of feats you want to have. If you have a feat to spare in your build, go for dervish dance, because then you will never have to worry about a different weapon being better than your current but losing your Dex bonus to damage.
If you need a lot of other feats for your build to work and cant spare it, you will have to go with the weapon enhancement.
| notabot |
Ah, the choice between a feat/skill tax or a magic item tax.
My choice is to not try to use a screwdriver to drive a nail.
Sure you can get the job done, but its just easier to use a hammer. (use strength for damage, dex damage builds have too many hoops to jump through and end up behind as a result).
You are trying to use a single stat to increase your DPR and AC. You are trying to do this so you can be a little more MAD rather than SAD, but the rules don't like that, so they make pay for that ability.
Well lets really look at this. In a point buy getting 1 really high stat is expensive, but getting 2 medium stats is cheap (an 18 costs 17 points without racial bonus, while a 14 costs 5 each, 2 stats only cost 10 points). The difference between the two is +2 ability bonus. Nice, but in all honestly not world shattering if you aren't going to stack damage with a 2 handed weapon build. Same thing goes with the initiative and armor bonus that you get from stacking dex.
The fact that you can also get magic items that boost 2 stats for a slight premium over single stat items of the same bonus or cheaper than items that provide a higher bonus to just one (personally i like the +2/+2 over a single +4...) means that even leveling up there isn't quite the need for going full 1 stat. The difference IMHO is not so large.
I guess what I'm saying is by going with this feat or property you are gaining only a little bit of damage/AC in the long run compared to a more balanced approach. A 14 str 16 dex (post racials) is not a bad start for a character focusing on a single handed weapon, and leaves plenty of attribute points for other stuff like int and con.
Also since you plan on going into duelist, why did you take rogue AND fighter levels? Rogues have delayed entry into the class due to BAB loss, feat loss ect. Taking fighter levels reduces the number of rogue talents and sneak attack dice. Personally I would go free hand fighter 6 (they get some nice AC and attack bonus, and gets deceptive strike too) then go into duelist.
As for the character as he exists now: buy the enchantment, gold is something you can get more of, but feats and skills are irreplaceable.
| mplindustries |
It's just a question of whether gold or a feat (and two worthless skill ranks) is more valuable to you. Personally, I'd rather have the feat, so if I knew I could start with an Agile weapon, I'd go for that.
But you can have Dervish Dance as early as 2nd level on a Fighter, so I'd do that if I had to actually play until midlevel (where it would first be reasonable to get an Agile weapon), I'd do Dervish Dance.
| Khrysaor |
He'd be going more SAD, single attribute dependent, than MAD, multiple attribute dependent. The entire purpose of the build, dervish dance, is to require no STR investment because your damage is DEX based. This is a common rogue theme and allows for investing into a stat to provide more utility than a mediocre STR.
My suggestion, since you've multiclassed fighter/ rogue, is to take the feat and skill points. You get bonus combat feats from fighter to provide the feat and tons of skill points from rogue. This frees up the +1 enchantment for straight enhancement or some other buff like bane or heart seeker.
| notabot |
He'd be going more SAD, single attribute dependent, than MAD, multiple attribute dependent. The entire purpose of the build, dervish dance, is to require no STR investment because your damage is DEX based. This is a common rogue theme and allows for investing into a stat to provide more utility than a mediocre STR.
Oh, sure, rogues commonly go for the pure dex build, despite how suboptimal it ultimately is. Multiple feat taxes, below par damage anyways, the need to sneak attack to sort of make up for it (due to the low BAB and lack of feats esp after the taxes still puts you behind a str rogue or better, a full BAB class). In this case a fighter/rogue/duelist build gives up a point or two in BAB in exchange for a dice or two of sneak attack damage, a rogue talent or two in exchange for useful feat(s)... All to go into a class that doesn't progress sneak attack nor gets rogue talents or makes much use out of them. In fact all that duelist really does is make a character do slightly more damage each level and have an additional stat that gives bonus to AC, but only if they use low damage dice weapons and low AC armor... Why is this good again?
Eh, I'm not going to stop somebody from playing something suboptimal, I'm just looking at saving some feats and potentially some gold by suggesting that the pure dex builds are just elaborate feat/gold traps.
| Khrysaor |
Rogue talents:
combat trick: get any combat feat. It's equal to a fighters bonus feat.
Weapon training: gain weapon focus as a feat. Equal to a fighters bonus feat.
Finesse Rogue: gain weapon finesse as a bonus feat. Equal to a fighters bonus feat.
Those seem like useful talents to a duelist.
You do realize that a duelist is thematically a finesse fighter not a brute force fighter. Dodge, Mobility, and Weapon Finesse are the feat requirements. Finessible weapons tend to be the ones that dont benefit that greatly from STR as opposed to DEX. The classes first ability requires you to wear light or no armor. A high Dex gives you better reflex saves, coupled with evasion from the rogue seems good. The Dex is also a boost to initiative, also a class feature of the duelist. Seems like there's a lot of synergy to go along with that theme.
Even if his build was fighter2/rogue8/duelist10 he'd have a BAB of +18. More than likely he'll be 5/5 for weapon training and 3d6 sneak or 3/7 weapon master archetype to get weapon training at level 3 and then 4d6 sneak. All of these builds have +18 BAB. My guess is weapon master fighter3/rogue4 to get the +6 BAB and then into duelist. Using two of the rogue talents above from rogue 4 and he's set.
Where's the vastly superior STR build duelist? I'm still failing to see the suboptimal argument, but since you're the righteous power gamer that knows all I should just give up any attempts to understand.
If you don't want to join an advice thread to give advice to the question the player is asking, what's the point of saying anything. Not everyone is a power gamer, and those that like flavor make 'suboptimal' choices to accomplish their flavor.
Reynard_the_fox
|
True, Str 14 Dex 16 isn't terrible for a finesse character. But the Dervish Dance option lets you go Str 7 Dex 16 if you so choose. That's 8 points to spend on other stats. Yes, carrying capacity and climbing/swimming capabilities might be low (though you'll probably have lower armor check penalties, too), but being able to focus purely on dex means you only need to keep one stat belt up to snuff. It makes small martial characters a viable option, and allows you to effectively use effects like Reduce Person, that increase Dex but decrease Str.
Obviously the Barbarian with the greatsword is going to be able to damage things better than any Dervish Dancer. But can he use acrobatics or stealth? Can he disable devices or pick pockets? Sure, the human with a rapier might be better off just pushing a few points into strength and using the feat for something else, but what about the halflings and gnomes that want to be able to do more than scratch their enemies? Two feats is not an unbearable price to pay for an ability that turns skill monkeys into damage dealers.
@Chunkylover: You probably have feats and skill ranks to spare, so if you don't mind using a scimitar, I'd go with Dervish Dance. Since you're doubtless going to want a really good weapon, and the cost rises exponentially with each ability you add, the feat is going to be cheaper in the long run.
| notabot |
Where's the vastly superior STR build duelist? I'm still failing to see the suboptimal argument, but since you're the righteous power gamer that knows all I should just give up any attempts to understand.If you don't want to join an advice thread to give advice to the question the player is asking, what's the point of saying anything. Not everyone is a power gamer, and those that like flavor make 'suboptimal' choices to accomplish their flavor.
True, Str 14 Dex 16 isn't terrible for a finesse character. But the Dervish Dance option lets you go Str 7 Dex 16 if you so choose. That's 8 points to spend on other stats. Yes, carrying capacity and climbing/swimming capabilities might be low (though you'll probably have lower armor check penalties, too), but being able to focus purely on dex means you only need to keep one stat belt up to snuff. It makes small martial characters a viable option, and allows you to effectively use effects like Reduce Person, that increase Dex but decrease Str.
Right, I'm the power gamer. Suggesting a balanced approach that is less gimmicky is the new power gaming, while complete dump + single focus attribute characters is the flavorful way of playing.
As for giving advice towards what was asked, I did answer the question asked, and suggested a reasonable but different approach.
As for the full 20 level build, lvl 20 power is the LEAST relevant thing in actual play. You spend most of your time below level 20, and going for exotic and awkward builds that take time to come fully online is what I'm calling suboptimal (also go look at the rogue threads, rogues are a pretty poor class in terms of pretty much everything, even at the things they are supposed to be good at). Sure they might pay off... but what about all the crap that you put the party through when your character was an anchor? Pure dex rogues and dex fighters have hefty feat taxes that make it difficult (but not impossible) to pull your own weight.
| Khrysaor |
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Ah, the choice between a feat/skill tax or a magic item tax.
My choice is to not try to use a screwdriver to drive a nail.
Sure you can get the job done, but its just easier to use a hammer. (use strength for damage, dex damage builds have too many hoops to jump through and end up behind as a result).
Oh, sure, rogues commonly go for the pure dex build, despite how suboptimal it ultimately is. Multiple feat taxes, below par damage anyways, the need to sneak attack to sort of make up for it (due to the low BAB and lack of feats esp after the taxes still puts you behind a str rogue or better, a full BAB class). In this case a fighter/rogue/duelist build gives up a point or two in BAB in exchange for a dice or two of sneak attack damage, a rogue talent or two in exchange for useful feat(s)... All to go into a class that doesn't progress sneak attack nor gets rogue talents or makes much use out of them. In fact all that duelist really does is make a character do slightly more damage each level and have an additional stat that gives bonus to AC, but only if they use low damage dice weapons and low AC armor... Why is this good again?
Eh, I'm not going to stop somebody from playing something suboptimal, I'm just looking at saving some feats and potentially some gold by suggesting that the pure dex builds are just elaborate feat/gold traps.
This entire comment is about power gaming. Using terms like sub optimal, feat tax, and pointing out the lack of synergy and how there is no point to doing this because pure Dex builds are ultimately suboptimal.
You care more about mechanical optimization than creating anything else that is slightly less powerful. Not that optimization is bad, but shouting about far superior alternatives because someone wants to try something else isn't constructive.
Please don't add someone else's comment to mine and argue that it has any relevance to mine. I didn't suggest dumping STR to 7. Although from a purely mechanical power gaming perspective, it's the optimal choice.
I also posted a level 7 example that is only 1 BAB behind the straight fighter but has 2d6 sneak and a lot more skills and utility. Not just level 20 examples which were there to show that you lose 2 BAB across 20 levels and could have upwards of 4d6 sneak damage.
In a 15 point buy where you are a finesse warrior and eventually going into the duelist PrC, your stats could look like;
11STR, 14DEX, 12CON, 14INT, 12WIS, 10CHA and then add your racial mods. This is a balanced array, but knowing your character concept intent will guide the stats. You've already got 2 stats, DEX and INT, that better serve the design. Why would you make your character more MAD? Sure you could do so for flavor, but your argument was to not waste time with DEX and base yourself on STR.
If I wanted to power game this they could be;
7STR, 16DEX, 13CON, 16INT, 10WIS, 7CHA and then add racial mods. Since DEX and INT are so important, play an elf and get a +2 to both of them.