During my last session we had an issue arise that none of us were very sure how to solve.
If I am a 4th level wizard and have prepared and casted a shocking grasp as one of my L1 spell slots, does it get cast at 1st lv (thus only dealing 1d6), or does it deal 4d6 since I am 4th level?
Also, I would pose the same question, but from reading a scroll instead of preparing it. (So far, I've just been keeping a tally of how many scrolls I have for each spell, and not making any notes about the level it is cast at).
I ask because buying/finding a scroll has never come with info on what level the spell it to be cast at, but our most knowledgable person at the table (who has been right when recalling rules off the top of his head pretty much every time so far) had said something about how technically, I needed to roll 1d6 instead of 4d6 if I was casting it from a L1 slot when I cast. Something about the level I was casting it at.
if the spell you cast yourself say "1d6 per caster lvl (max 5d6) then its stays the spell lvl its at...shocking grasp is a lvl 1 spell and therefore uses up a lvl 1 spell slot when cast...it doing more dmg is jst a bonus to your character for your lvling higher as that class lol...as for the scrolls let me do some reading and get back to you...i hardly ever use scrolls
That still doesn't clear up whether or not shocking grasp should do 1d6 or 4d6. I know it uses up a 1st level slot, that isn't the issue. The issue is whether or not a level-dependent aspect of a spell (like damage or duration) is based off my total caster level, or the spell slot in which it is prepared.
The per caster level wording is inherently different from spell level. If they meant spell level that's what they would have written.
The per caster level wording is inherently different from spell level. If they meant spell level that's what they would have written.
Thanks, that's what I was thinking, but this is my first spellcaster in Pathfinder, so I'm still very much learning all the rules.
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its a first lvl spell...its always prepared as a 1st lvl spell unless something else modifies that...you cant prepare a spell in a higher slot unless something else (like metamagic) says you can
To clarify...if im a lvl 5 oracle of life...i cast cure light wounds (1d8 +1 per caster lvl (max +5) of healing)) then it using a slot of a first lvl spell and heals a total of 1d8+5
so if you are a lvl 4 wizard...you cast shocking grasp (1d6 +1d6 per caster lvl (max 5d6) of electricty damage)) then it uses a lvl 1 spell slot and you do 4d6 of damage
Damage is based off of your caster level in the class that's casting it.
So, if you were Wizard 1/Cleric 5, you'd cast Shocking Grasp (from a Wizard spell slot) with a Caster Level (CL) of 1, thus doing 1d6 damage. The same character would cast Hold Person (from a Cleric spell slot) with a CL of 5, giving it a duration of 5 rounds.
ZZTRaider hits it on the head :) i was about to say that also since he said it was his first spellcaster
if you multiclass you have separate Caster Levels for each class
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its a first lvl spell...its always prepared as a 1st lvl spell unless something else modifies that...you cant prepare a spell in a higher slot unless something else (like metamagic) says you can
"A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell."
OP could opt to put shocking grasp in a 2nd level slot, but it would still be a spell of spell level 1.
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its a first lvl spell...its always prepared as a 1st lvl spell unless something else modifies that...you cant prepare a spell in a higher slot unless something else (like metamagic) says you can
You can use a higher level slot to get another lower-level spell - for example, the 4th level wizard mentioned could prepare shocking grasp using one of his 2nd level slots - but it's still in all ways a spell of its usual spell level, unless enhanced by metamagic as mentioned.
ZZTRaider hits it on the head :) i was about to say that also since he said it was his first spellcaster
if you multiclass you have separate Caster Levels for each class
*she, but I'll forgive you this time :P
Also, thanks everybody. That's how I thought it worked, but our party fighter (who has played Pathfinder since 2009) seemed very confident with his spell-level-dependent version of things. Normally, he's spot on with rules off the top of his head, which is why I was unsure.
its a first lvl spell...its always prepared as a 1st lvl spell unless something else modifies that...you cant prepare a spell in a higher slot unless something else (like metamagic) says you can
Actually you can prepare spells at a higher level spell slot if you want. Say you don't like your level 4 spells but love Fireball you can prepare Fireball in your level 4 spell slots assuming you can cast level 4 spells.
Let me explain. No, there is too much. Let me sum up.
Also it is useful for someone with a casting stat that is not high enough. Say your int is 16, that means you can only cast level 6 spells. However you still get level 7, 8, & 9 spell slots. Know what you can prepare in those slots? Yep you guessed it, any spell you want that is level 6 or lower.
Edit: Ninjas, they are everywhere!
Let me explain. No, there is too much. Let me sum up.
D: Every time I see/hear someone say that it reminds me of the one time I have enjoyed a movie more than a book. Then I feel guilty because saying a book is worse than a movie just feels blasphemous.
There's a fair bit of common sense in the rules. However, when you get in a setting where you get nerds (let's face facts) who have a penchant for hyper analyzing figures and rules get together to play a game like this they can easily lose sight of this if/when things don't go in their favor. For example, the GM who is a jackass because his encounters don't last as long as they thought or the player who feels they shouldn't be killed suddenly gets critted for twice their total HP or "there's no way" they should have failed a save.
It's a good rule of thumb to keep in mind that sometimes you just need to step back and think "what makes sense?" These boards are a good resource for that. I've been pretty sure of myself on some interpretations and the lovely folks here can generally show you what's what.
Now, some things don't make sense. Things like Monk Flurry of Blows being two-weapon fighting. Things like this are often case-by-case and come from developer clarifications. I'm sure it made sense to the development team and some individuals when they reviewed the material but it didn't come across that way in print.
A few more rules of thumb:
No characters of equal level should completely overshadow another. If there is, you either have stacked bonuses that don't stack, things you shouldn't otherwise have, one character "found" some gold and didn't share or somesuch or one of the characters is either very optimized while the other isn't, etc. Or, you're comparing a fighter to a wizard. :) Fighters can do cool things but wizards have time stop and wish. There's no bridging that gap without multiclassing, use magic device, etc.
The game is generally geared to let the PCs win in a CR appropriate encounter. This extends to non-combat encounters such as a level appropriate lock *should* be able to be picked by a rogue without needing a high roll on the d20.
The game is built around the concept of the 15 minute adventuring day. So, if your party is slaying monsters from sun up to sun down that's going to be a lot more taxing than what the rules will assume you do.
Rule 0 is to have fun, not GM fiat. The game is a cooperative between players and GMs as well as a cooperative among players. To anyone who says a session isn't *meant* for player enjoyment should be kicked in the nuts. The same is true about GMs. GENERALLY speaking, the players should be able to go to the GM about rule-tweaks about things that simply aren't fun for them and the GM should do the same to the players.
Enjoy!
ZZTRaider hits it on the head :) i was about to say that also since he said it was his first spellcaster
if you multiclass you have separate Caster Levels for each class
*she, but I'll forgive you this time :P
Also, thanks everybody. That's how I thought it worked, but our party fighter (who has played Pathfinder since 2009) seemed very confident with his spell-level-dependent version of things. Normally, he's spot on with rules off the top of his head, which is why I was unsure.
This is probably why he is the fighter.
;P
I apologize what i meant by that statement is that using a higher lvl spell slot does nothing to the "power" of a spell...which is why i used metamagic as an example...sorry for the wording i used :)
Or, you're comparing a fighter to a wizard. :) Fighters can do cool things but wizards have time stop and wish. There's no bridging that gap without multiclassing, use magic device, etc.
Oh, I know that fighters and wizards are totally different and do really different things. It just so happened that our most knowledgable person decided to build a fighter (which is why I was so confused and decided to come here to get a ruling).
I apologize what i meant by that statement is that using a higher lvl spell slot does nothing to the "power" of a spell...which is why i used metamagic as an example...sorry for the wording i used :)
Sure it does. It raises the DC to dispel it, for example. It won't change the caster level of the caster, though.
Or, you're comparing a fighter to a wizard. :) Fighters can do cool things but wizards have time stop and wish. There's no bridging that gap without multiclassing, use magic device, etc.Oh, I know that fighters and wizards are totally different and do really different things. It just so happened that our most knowledgable person decided to build a fighter (which is why I was so confused and decided to come here to get a ruling).
If this comes across as particularly nitpicking I do apologize. However, I'm of the belief that people can only really retain certain areas of the rules at any given time. To be honest, the game has a lot of f$&#ing rules. From spells to combat to magic items to terrain to objects to planes to monsters including rules how all these interrelate. And that's toned down from 3.5. Jesus-H-Christ, right? It's the rare few that can really Know It All. So, don't feel bad that you might not be as experienced of a player but also never get to the place where you think your rules knowledge is absolute. I guarantee you missed something or will need to look something up.
I apologize what i meant by that statement is that using a higher lvl spell slot does nothing to the "power" of a spell...which is why i used metamagic as an example...sorry for the wording i used :)Sure it does. It raises the DC to dispel it, for example. It won't change the caster level of the caster, though.
No...the DC to dispel is 11+Caster level...using a higher spell slot for a lower level spell does not change the caster level of the spell at all
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No...the DC to dispel is 11+Caster level...using a higher spell slot for a lower level spell does not change the caster level of the spell at allI apologize what i meant by that statement is that using a higher lvl spell slot does nothing to the "power" of a spell...which is why i used metamagic as an example...sorry for the wording i used :)Sure it does. It raises the DC to dispel it, for example. It won't change the caster level of the caster, though.
And characteristics that do work off spell level, such as its saving throw DC or whether it pierces a globe of invulnerability, use its standard spell level unless affected by Heighten Spell.
Ah, okay. Oh, that's for magic items as you can "set" the CL for the item.
off topic...i like you guys :) i am new to actually posted and so far there hasnt been any "arguments"...jst ppl stating when im wrong and me seeing it and going "oh yea duh"...and then when i point out someone is wrong they react the same...good group of ppl on here eh
Paizo does a decent job at enforcing the don't be a jerk rule. There have been a lot of heated debates on here. Just... well, don't be a jerk. :)
I apologize what i meant by that statement is that using a higher lvl spell slot does nothing to the "power" of a spell...which is why i used metamagic as an example...sorry for the wording i used :)Sure it does. It raises the DC to dispel it, for example. It won't change the caster level of the caster, though.
While it was already clarified that dispel DC is always 11+Caster Level, this does bring up a good point for the OP...
Regardless of what level spell slot you prepare it in, it doesn't change the spell's actual level. Fireball, for example, is still a 3rd level spell, even if you prepare it in a 9th level spell slot, and you still calculate the Save DC as a 3rd level spell (10 + SL + Casting Stat Mod = 10 + 3 + Int Mod).
This is true even when metamagic such as Quicken or Silent raise the minimum level spell slot required to prepare the spell. The only exception is Heighten, which does change the level of the spell. So, if we prepared a Heightened Fireball in a 9th level spell slot, it truly is a 9th level spell, and the Save DC is calculated appropriately (10 + 9 + Int Mod)