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Hi folks,
I have run Kingmaker partway through twice now and honestly, it's getting to the point where I hate it (level 7-10, Chapter 3). The monsters just die. I feel like I'm just throwing slabs of XP at my players.
My party layout (since I know it will be asked) is:
Half-elf Wild Shadow Ranger (Archer): He does the most damage, getting around 40-60 damage each turn without moving. With Improved Precise Shot cover and concealment simply don't matter.
Aasimar Monk/Paladin/Champion of Irori: He's rather annoying to hit as the Crane Stlye feats allow him to ignore one strike and most creatures only get 2-3 if they get a full attack
Gunslinger/Holy Gun Paladin - New character but looking at her build? Death. Death everywhere.
Half-orc battle oracle: Surprisingly, not the biggest threat considering the archer kills the monsters long before his clunky ass can get near, but his buffing is rather potent.
Kitsune Summoner with a Large Bipedal Eidolon and flight: Yep. +9 Str mod and a buffing summoner with Haste. It tears apart monsters.
Here's the thing. The party layout doesn't REALLY matter. If I only allowed Core Rulebook items and nothing else, a druid, an archer, a barbarian and a cleric would yield nearly the same results (though Vordakai would actually be a challenge rather than the bullet/arrow-ridden corpse he will become).
My problems with Kingmaker are twofold:
1) One or two encounters a day. This is a near unavoidable part of Kingmaker as exploring a hex takes a day. You take a day, fight your random encounter and sleep. And what is a completely sensible thing to do before bed? Have the cleric/healer burn some cure spells before bed and get them back in the morning. Why wouldn't you? It's just good sense to keep your party hale and hearty. Hell they could also do it in the morning before prayers.
This means every fight the PCs are fully charged and healed (or almost). So unless that encounter is notably tough, you're in for a meat grinder. Any encounter in any adventure/dungeon is going to be easy when the players are fully charged up.
There simply are no endurance tests or dungeons. They fight an encounter and sleep because that's how the theme of the adventure is written.
2) Big slabs of meat, as I call it. Most encounters in the first three books are big dumb hunks of meat. Manticores, mastodons, hill giants, trolls, etc. There is usually one of them and in most fights 5 vs 1 favors the five. The issue is the encounters that AREN'T one encounter tend to be minions. Sometimes they're actually challenging (like the stone witches were b$$**es) but in general, odds favor the numbers.
Not to mention with vast hill lands (hills dominate the Stolen Lands) archers have a field day.
So how can I get around this without completely changing the campaigns flavor and feel? I don't want to punish my players. I want to challenge them without throwing in some god awful monsters.
The group sounds very potent and min/maxed also it's large (5+1 (Eidolon) characters), so my advises would be:
- add some by-the-road adventures with more then one encounter (make the "Hill Giant random encounter") a hill giant cave.
- add the Advanced template to all monsters (did
- max HP for all monsters
- play the monsters smart (If a min/max fighter with int 8 can use tactics, a troll can it too^^)
- If the players are in the "one encounter a day" mood, throw two or three at them. Not to punish them, but to remove whis "one encounter a day" thinking
- add aditional low CR monsters (meat shields) to the random encounter (as you said 5vs1 is lame).
- for XP: make it sure that you stay in the level progression of the AP, even if this means not giving the XP for the "meatshields" etc.
- but one thing: talk to your player, explain them that you will spice up the game to keep it intresting
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Kingmaker definitely isnt meant to be run "as is" out of the box. IMO about 50-60% of the total content needed for the AP is included, the rest is up to the GM to generate. This is the part that should really challenge the players, because it is tailored to them, both their strengths and their weaknesses.
NE fey druids with control winds and a mountain of summoned nature's ally spells - pair with a summoner and an anti-paladin to give them back the same that they dish out.
Check out the other Kingmaker and Kingmaker mashup campaign threads for statblocks to pillage. >:) Trust me, there's some things out there to copy-paste into a real challenge for your group. (A certain band of class leveled cyclopses, a certain troll anti-paladin from my own journal come to mind...)
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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Look into the six member party conversions, the combats are a bit more challenging in those.
My best advice though is that Kingmaker is a sandbox for the GM as much as it is for the players. Do not look at it as a set in stone AP but a tool box with enough tools to create something that you can really have fun with. Make it your own.
In this case, add more encounters and pick a few to make more dangerous. I did this for my group, and the combats that I tailored are the ones they found the most challenging and enjoyable. The troll lair was almost a death trap for them, as the trolls used smarter tactics, were a bit more resistant to their abilities, and had some really deadly attacks.
There are spells and magic items that can combat ranged attacks effectively, like protection from arrows and wind wall.
You can also handle your monk with multiple foes. They may be able deflect one attack, but that doesn't mean much against three or four foes. Try foes that have a high chance to hit but low damage.
Also, add more hazards and features to your combats. Difficult terrain, higher ground, traps, hazards, and other features can make a big difference in a combat. Look into adding more of those.
Do your best to avoid single foe fights. These are the true XP slabs. Instead, add some more enemies to keep the PCs challenged. They may take down a single mook in a round or two, but that buys you more time to play with the BBEG.
If you feel you must have a BBEG all alone, give them more levels and powers. You could also try out the Mythic playtest on them.
If all else fails follow the rule of, "If you ain't having fun, do something else."
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If they really think they're all that and a bag of chips, sicc a wendigo on 'em.
There are plenty of ways for untamed wilderness to interfere with archery.
Go find some thick scrub/forest/jungle, and measure out how far you can see into it. Hills can also be good, fine when you get to the top, but you can't shoot through the hill when you can't see the foe. If they get to the top and you are half way up, down they will rush and they will even have height.
More traps from bandits and rival groups, more monsters, more foes that dig in and use good tactics (in a burrow, a trap is set for when they enter, then the monster rushes in close or they fall into a pit with the monster).
I would also recommend using odd foes like xorns, xerans (see tricky owlbear xorn book), thri kreen (the leap, the gythka spam), tricky critters like gremlins with monk levels and deflect arrows and really nasty foes like behirs that attack from ambush.
If they really think they're all that and a bag of chips, sicc a wendigo on 'em.
+ yetis with harpoons.
just asking but:
The AP's are desinged for 4 pc's and stats are 15 point buy so have you compensated for this or are you running as written?
if not that might be why
Are your players having fun? Have there been complaints?
As said earlier, vary the terrain and use the creatures' natural abilities. Adding to the number of creatures is more effective than increasing their stats; of course, you can do both.
Also, consider varying the weather: wind, rain, fog, snow, sleet, hail, etc. will all reduce a party's effectiveness.
Kingmaker definitely isnt meant to be run "as is" out of the box. IMO about 50-60% of the total content needed for the AP is included, the rest is up to the GM to generate. This is the part that should really challenge the players, because it is tailored to them, both their strengths and their weaknesses.
This, totally this ^
I had the same problem until I started thinking of it less as a path and more of a guide. Last game had a tense fight with A team (in my game there are 2 groups of 5) on that barest verge of TPK. Druid/Rogue was down, NPC bard squire Issana Varn single digits, Party meatshield/grinder barbarian single digits, Party battlefield control wizard single digits, party dog-pack dead, Marshal and Ninja barely scratched. What brought them to the brink? Orc with barbarian levels, slightly upgraded Girgori, orc with Cavaleer levels, and an orc with a good blaster sorc build, along with 4 lesser fighters (3rd level) against a party of 5+1 NPC and animal companion. A few rolls go differently this is a party in deep deep crap (and one less headache for me) as it is it was close.
Why so close? I designed all the NPCs and their tactics. Bast party the orcs surrendered b/c they all stayed up long enough due to orchish ferocity and knew they'd get wiped otherwise. They had a great theme appropriate background and they were a planned component of my much meaner version of DM_Dudemeiste's Hargulka's mod.
The PCs even lost 2 of the 8 armies they raised to counter all I thew at them, including a sacrificial maneuver by the Kobold sappers to save the day. War felt like war.
My players are having a blast but I am miserable. I like challenging my players, not handing them XP.
Same here!
I used to hate it if the players had easy wins, but it is good to keep your emotions in check, try to make it more challenging, harder, and then see if they are having a lot of fun.
Some hate to actually be challenged in the manner of 2nd ed, I mean no mockery here, just some like to win easy, and some are also power gamers so they will try to make themselves win as easily as possible.
As for kingmaker, another thread covered this, why not have more fey attacks early on, and the centaurs emerge as a serious you must battle this out enemy in the mid-game.
Reiterating what others have said, change it then. Plenty of places to add in a nice long dungeon crawl. This is the Kamelands after all.
Things to consider changing. Whose to say there is only one-two encounters each day? Each of those hexes are big. I mean really big. Plenty of room for more than one group of trolls.
Also, forest makes ranged attacks difficult, and swamps are even worse. The issue isn't the cover necessarily, but perceiving the threat before it gets to melee ranged. Also, improved precise shot is great, unless they are actually behind a tree. Don't use this as an excuse to gimp the archer though, just remind them of the limitations. Yes, hills predominate and archers shine. Let 'em. This is their playground.
If you want an encounter that can seriously threaten the party, and probably result in several character deaths, try the will-o-wisps. Will-o-wisps are very much in keeping with the campaign, and on the random encounter table. These are more than smart enough to turn invisible and attack the party at night when most are sleeping. Few things are as scary to see a flash of light, only to find John dead in his sleep. And, the wisp is perfectly willing to do nothing for the rest of the night. Only to return again on a later night.
On that note. Attack at night. Despite being heroic heroes, the characters are still spending nights in the wild. People are scared of dark woods and going outside at night for a reason. It's dangerous. There isn't time to put on armor, weapons may not be nearby, spells will be low, and the eidolon won't be there.
Worgs and other predators can usually make successful attacks on horses and other pack beasts, or on characters that feel the call of nature before their companions can respond. Remember, a fireball explosion may mean you wake up instantly, it doesn't mean you understand what's going on or capable of rational thought.
Also, trolls and other meat slabs, but particularly trolls, hunt at night. They are smart predators who know their advantages lie in total darkness.
If you think vordakai will die too easily, play him straight up. He's specifically written to be dumb so as to not TPK, but doesn't have to be. He's been watching the party, knows their strengths and weaknesses, and just what they are capable of. If you don't think his printed spell loadout is threatening enough. He has spell books there. They are specifically written in as loot, use them. If you where a cyclopian lich of terrible, 20th, power, what spells would you have access to?
Really dumb question but you are running the 6 player conversion right? I mean that thread ups all you challenges and totally does all the math of adding minions or advanced templates for you... Out of the book is too easy except for a few killer random rolls (like the trolls before level 3 or the will-o-wisp.)
Blademaster - I understand your headache, as I run into the same thing sometimes with my group. We've got 7 people at the table when everyone is available to play. I've found that as a GM I'm constantly on my toes to give them a real challenge, but not obliterate them outright. However there is a solution.
To fix this you will have to sink some extra time and work into making things more challenging. The first thing I would do is start by forcing them to have more than one random encounter a day. Give them three, but with the opportunity to go back and rest up in town if the need to.
Encounter 1, morning - 2 owlbears and three owlbear cubs. Standard as listed in the bestiary, for the cubs give them -2 to everything.
Encounter 2, lunchtime - 2 satyrs lie in ambush with a group of 10 spriggan archers. Satyrs are stock out of the bestiary, the spriggans would be clones of those in the Varnhold environs. Play these guys smart, they are trying to ambush and capture the party (sleeping poison, etc).
Encounter 3, late afternoon - 7 wolves led by an awakend Worg sorcerer.
Wolves are advanced (again +2), give the worg 4 levels of sorcerer on top of his worgliness. Let the party think this is just a normal wolf pack and 'easy xp slabs'.
This will show them a few things - 1) blowing their wad on the first owlbear of the day is a poor decision, 2) the wilds are a fiercely dangerous place, and 3) you have no idea how things have their own agendas in the Kamelands.
The big thing I picked up on fast with a large group is that upping the CR of a single monster doesn't cut it. If there is only one foe the party get in the habit of nuking it fast and the combat is over in a round or two. *Forcing* the party to split their resources, and divide their attentions will cause the encounters to be much more memorable and hard fought, and allow the players to feel even more like the heroes (as they should).
- Throw multiple foes at them, and do it often.
- Interrupt their sleep - let random encounters happen at night. This puts the party at a disadvantage as most will have to don their armor or risk being mush more squishy than they'd like to be. This also prevents spellcasters form memorizing, the whole 8 hours uninterrupted rest thing.
- Give them encounters that are not based on killing a monster. Clever traps or riddles. Things like the loggers in Rivers Run Red - make them negotiate and come to a nonviolent solution.
Hope this helps, it certainly helped me when I started doing these sorts of things for my group. Best of luck with it man!
No need to Awaken Worgs - they're already sentient Magical Beasts. They can speak Common, even, as well as Goblin. Just move their stats around a little to give them whatever class levels you want.
Random monsters are booooooring. Throwing more random monster encounters in isn't an answer. If having one encounter a day is too easy, I'd look at upping the difficulty of your random monster table. Use the table from the next book.
I do think the flat "25% chance of one encounter per day" lets the players metagame too much. Maybe if you have an encounter, then there's a 25% chance for another encounter, and another, and another.
I'll agree that, sadly, you probably need to prep some more beefed up encounters. Start doubling hit points, change spells if the bad guy knows what is coming, etc.
Also you could slow down the handing out of XP. If they are having too easy of a time, let them get a level or two behind.
No need to Awaken Worgs - they're already sentient Magical Beasts. They can speak Common, even, as well as Goblin. Just move their stats around a little to give them whatever class levels you want.
Worg with Advanced and the stat array bump from obtaining class levels will make the encounter very memorable.
Advanced Worg = Str 21, Dex 19, Con 17, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 14, CR 3
Class Levels: 6th Bard (Savage Skald archetype recommended) or Sorcerer = CR 6 "boss" critter [+1 CR per +1 bard or sorcerer level after 6th] = Str 25, Dex 19, Con 20, Int 14, Wis 20, Cha 18 with level advancement factored in - if advancing to higher CR, put Con back to 19 and Cha to 19 before adding on higher level advancement points. 4d10 +6d6 HD = 10 total HD , +4 natural armor bonus (instead of +2), base Fort +6 (4+2), base Reflex +6 (4+2), base Will +7 (2+5) = Fort +11, Reflex +10, Will +12, base attack +7 as Sorcerer 6 / Fort +11, Reflex +13, Will +12, base attack +8 as Bard 6.
Have fun!