The Pathfinder Monk: A New Take

[rainzax]

Rathyr, Atarlost,

do you not agree that a BAB point, +2 all saves, proficiency with monk weapons (look in UC - there are some solid exotic options), AC bonus, feats... is too much for a 1-level dip?

if you don't agree, fine. if you do agree, what would you take away?

personally, i think the BAB boost is major.

so much so that i would keep skills at 4 and keep Stunning Fist over a bonus feat. but that's me. and my imaginary line.

also, have you guys seen this? i think this is a step in the right direction. i am working on a simplified version (less contingencies) which i will post later once i do some balance calculations...

[Tectorman]

rainzax wrote:

Rathyr, Atarlost,

do you not agree that a BAB point, +2 all saves, proficiency with monk weapons (look in UC - there are some solid exotic options), AC bonus, feats... is too much for a 1-level dip?

if you don't agree, fine. if you do agree, what would you take away?

personally, i think the BAB boost is major.

so much so that i would keep skills at 4 and keep Stunning Fist over a bonus feat. but that's me. and my imaginary line.

also, have you guys seen this? i think this is a step in the right direction. i am working on a simplified version (less contingencies) which i will post later once i do some balance calculations...

Compared to other martial classes (say, the Fighter or Ranger)...

*Full BAB- on par
*d8 HD- we're under the threshold for other martial classes
*proficiency with monk weapons- pretty much the same as proficiency with martial weapons
*AC Bonus- is accompanied by absolutely no armor or shield proficiencies and in fact fails to function with them; i.e., the AC Bonus stands in place of the armor proficiencies and we're on par with, I would say, a class-granted proficiency with light armor and maybe shields
*Flurry of Blows- is the equivalent of TWF but without prerequisites, but with a limited list of viable weapons but allows for the full sequence of attacks even with one weapon; i.e., on par with the Fighter's bonus feat or the Ranger's Favored Enemy
*4/6 + Int skill points- same as the Ranger, still on par
*+2 all saves- we're one better than the Monk; take that plus the reduced HD for a full BAB and we're on par still

Bear in mind, the Monk still needs to make up for the last remaining armor proficiencies. So there's still design space for Stunning Fist.

If, however, something needs to be taken away to make room for Stunning Fist, then I would recommend half-dropping a save. Pick one, say Fortitude, drop it to a poor save, and then at levels 2, 11, and 20, give a cumulative +1 competence (or whatever) bonus to Fortitude saves.

Also, it's unfortunate that the Monk's spell resistance went back to normal, but at least it's still named Diamond Soul so a player can use Qinggong Monk to trade that ability/curse out for, well, anything in the world else, and avoid SR like the plague.

[Rathyr]

@MA
Look, when I look at design, I look at it like code. If changing one small thing affects the code in 9 different places, its not a good fix. Changing Stunning Fist has a ripple effect exactly like that. You are creating work for yourself, and you need to start making special exclusions for archetypes and so on. You can make 100 changes to the Monk class and write pages of special conditions for how each change would interact with the current archetypes. That's not the kind of design that appeals to me. It's nothing personal, just how I see things (which is why I get enraged when I read things like the grapple rules *shudder*).

See below for the feat of a 1 level dip.

@rainzx @MA
How is it any different than a 1 level dip now? Those precious 2 skill points going to break the camels back? You already get 3 feats for 1 level of Monk. UAS, Stunning Fist and a choice of the rather mediocre first batch of Monk bonus feats. People aren't diving in now because none of those three things are that impressive. Monk exotic weapons are pretty niche. The entire Monk class is niche. It's hard to combine any of the toys you get as a Monk with the stuff from other classes, which is why I wouldn't be afraid of the level 1 dip.