Skill DC difficulty seems ridiculous


Pathfinder Adventure Path General Discussion


We're playing through the Carrion Crown and Legacy of Fire... Both GMs have remarked on the near impossible DCs at times.
We're level 5, and there have been two DC 35 perception checks in one session. These aren't even possible to succeed.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Not every skill check is there to be passed. If the story calls for a high DC based on the rules, then a high DC it is. Too many high DCs make your character feel like a loser, I'll agree, but a few really high DCs are necessary for realism and immersion.


I'm wondering why they're even in there if a level 5 character couldn't get it with a 20.


Legacy of Fire's DCs are technically 3.5 D&D DCs, as it was not an actually Pathfinder RPG path mechanically. That accounts for some of them.

And 35 is possible for a 5th level character, just unlikely. 8 from class skill with max ranks, 2 from racial bonus like elf, 3 from skill focus, 2 from wisdom, can get it on a 20. Then you could go further with stuff like another 2 from alertness, or 5 from goggles of minute seeing, or any other skill buffing things, like heroism, inspire competence, etc etc.

A normal character, aka Perception is not a priority, will not see it.
A focused character, aka perception is a priority, may see it on a 19-20.
A specialized character, aka perception is priority #1, might see it on a 14+ or even better.

Is the check a one shot, no time to study thing? So that you couldn't take 20? Can your allies not attempt to aid as well, possibly giving up to a +6 bonus?

35 is a top tier DC. Its the highest DC a Climb check can reach, for climbing on the underside of a ceiling with only handholds that are slippery. It is equivalent to disguising yourself as a specific individual of another race and gender and then spending entire days with the individual's significant other without any chance of being discovered. It is tracking a rat across a city's streets a week after it stole a diamond from a noble's house.

DC 35 is the stuff of legendary capers and incredible hijinks. Its a sad aspect of the game's constantly increasing power that at level 15, players go "ho hum, DC 35, I take 10 and get it" Pulling off DC 35 anything is what bards write stories about. Even having a chance of it at level 5 is impressive enough.

As long as the check isn't neccessary to advance the adventure, a few "Longshot" DCs are just fine, in my opinion. PCs should be able to succeed, but that doesn't mean they get a perfect clear coasting through with average effort/investment.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

A character dedicated to perception could indeed get it at level 5:

5 ranks
3 class
2 wisdom
2 racial
3 skill focus
______
+15

So an elf or halfling could get the check on a 20. Some DCs are incredibly high because its necessary, imagine if you rolled that twenty (or took 20). You'd feel like a champion!


The two 35s were from Carrion Crown, both perception checks. Not something that would be Take 20'd.

The Exchange

Magic helps if you think something is sketchy.

I don't remember it from CC but I can see it being used to give plot info to the gm he could later use to explain stuff to the party or to understand why x,y,x happen.

Monsters should be good at stuff sometimes.


Let's not forget that there is significant low - level spells that can ramp the Perception bonus up, such as keen senses (+2 competence bonus, 1st level spell) and acute senses (+10 enhancement bonus that jumps to a +20 at 8th and a +30 at 16th; 2nd level spell). Depending on the checks' timing at 5th, that's a +27 if both are up and running, resulting in needing to roll a mere 8 for the Perception-focused build. If a "more typical" Perception bonus of +8 is built upon with those same two spells, it's much more difficult (15+ required on the die) - but decidedly far from impossible.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

I don't remember what those high Perception check DCs were for, but often in developing an adventure, we DO put in nearly impossible checks for things that, if the PCs make the check, are a significant find and advantage, while not making those checks be "load bearing" checks that break the adventure if they don't show up. This way we give the skill specialists time to exceed perhaps even beyond their expectations.

One such example would be to make a secret door a REALLY high DC to find. The dungeon would be built so that the secret door would be a significant shortcut or advantage, but the dungeon still expects the intruders (the PCs) to follow the main route. In this case, though, there are other methods by which the PCs can find the secret door other than Perception checks; spells like detect secret door can help, as can interrogating a dungeon denizen about the doors, as can scouting things out and seeing someone go through the door, as can perhaps approaching the door from the non-secret side.

Never underestimate how well a PC can do something, in other words!

Liberty's Edge

James Jacobs wrote:

I don't remember what those high Perception check DCs were for, but often in developing an adventure, we DO put in nearly impossible checks for things that, if the PCs make the check, are a significant find and advantage, while not making those checks be "load bearing" checks that break the adventure if they don't show up. This way we give the skill specialists time to exceed perhaps even beyond their expectations.

One such example would be to make a secret door a REALLY high DC to find. The dungeon would be built so that the secret door would be a significant shortcut or advantage, but the dungeon still expects the intruders (the PCs) to follow the main route. In this case, though, there are other methods by which the PCs can find the secret door other than Perception checks; spells like detect secret door can help, as can interrogating a dungeon denizen about the doors, as can scouting things out and seeing someone go through the door, as can perhaps approaching the door from the non-secret side.

Never underestimate how well a PC can do something, in other words!

My first Shackled City game TPKed quick when the three elf PCs skipped Jzadirune by finding a secret door -_-


Also note, with JJ's example, you could take 20 with that perception check. Assuming, of course the door wasn't trapped or enemies were nearby.


I'll go with what others have said, high DC's are there for a reason (a good example is the DC for disable device on the wormwood in book1 of skull and shackles, some of the trapped doors etc have a DC's around 25 or so, out of reach of most 1st level PC's unless they are able to take 20 or VERY lucky and ROLL a 20.....

Which is kind of the idea I think, some things you are not meant to just stroll in and "by jove that was easy I now have the BBEG's Magic vorpal sword of plane shift and ultimate death" but then if you are extremely lucky you could just do it....

You can't make everything in an advnture a cake walk otherwise it becomes very boring and you lose the edge, the PC's become gods and the game stagnates.

The Exchange

Players are great with coming up with ways to mess with the story. Telepathy, tongues, and detect thoughs have made many opportunities in most games.

In Jade Regent our diviner just started:
mind reading a captured member of a suicide/assassin ninja squad who has no tongue.


igotsmeakabob11 wrote:

We're playing through the Carrion Crown and Legacy of Fire... Both GMs have remarked on the near impossible DCs at times.

We're level 5, and there have been two DC 35 perception checks in one session. These aren't even possible to succeed.

A high Perception DC like that is the module writer's way of saying "we expect that your party won't find this". If they left out the DC, then the GM would be forced to make one up -- possibly much lower than the writer intended -- and that might make the module play very poorly. See Coridan's comments about Jzadirune, for instance.*

*Although when I was GMing Shackled City, the party also spotted the same secret door and I thought it was a blessing! We were able to skip a lengthy dungeon crawl.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Also, one of Pathfinder's big design philosophies (and one that really started with 3rd edition) is that we prefer not to tell your characters you can't do anything. We prefer to say "you can try, but it's hard."

The game doesn't say "If you're a wizard you can't wear armor." It says, "If you're a wizard you CAN wear armor but you'll have a harder time casting spells."

Likewise, if there's a secret door in a room that isn't supposed to be found by most parties for whatever reason, we don't say, "The secret door is impossible to notice from this side,"—we instead just give it a high DC to notice.


James Jacobs wrote:

Also, one of Pathfinder's big design philosophies (and one that really started with 3rd edition) is that we prefer not to tell your characters you can't do anything. We prefer to say "you can try, but it's hard."

The game doesn't say "If you're a wizard you can't wear armor." It says, "If you're a wizard you CAN wear armor but you'll have a harder time casting spells."

Likewise, if there's a secret door in a room that isn't supposed to be found by most parties for whatever reason, we don't say, "The secret door is impossible to notice from this side,"—we instead just give it a high DC to notice.

Except of course for Stealth.

Can't use stealth while being observed. Can't use stealth in Bright Light without cover. Etc.

I've been tempted to house rule all of those to -20 penalties or something similar, in accord with the "you can try, but it's hard" philosophy.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder Adventure Path / General Discussion / Skill DC difficulty seems ridiculous All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in General Discussion