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I wanted to ask two questions about grappling to make sure that I'm understanding the rules correct.
First question: The rules say that a creature that successfully grapples a target, may deal damage equal to an unarmed strike or natural attack, as part of the standard action to maintain the grapple.
The rules also say that a creature with the grab ability may deal damage equal to the natural attack that it is grabbing with OR it may deal constrict damage if it has it, but it cannot deal both.
Therefore, my understanding is that a creature that successfully maintains the grab can either
A: Deal damage with the limb that is maintaining the grab AND deal damage equal to one of it's natural attacks, but not constrict damage
OR
B: Deal constrict damage AND deal damage equal to one of it's natural attacks, but not damage from the limb maintaining the grab.
For example, if I am grappled by a giant squid, on a maintained grapple, the giant squid can either:
A: Deal tentacle damage (4d6+3) and Bite damage (2d6+7)
or
B: Deal constrict damage (4d6+10) and Bite damage (2d6+7)
is that a correct application of the rules
Second Question
This is actually a bunch of smaller questions, but they all maintain to rake:
Creatures with the rake ability can deal their rake damage when they begin their turn grappling a creature.
If they can make the rake attacks as part of the standard action to maintain the grapple, can they just deal damage automatically, like grab/constrict, or do they have to roll to hit?
Finally, can a creature also deal damage as part of the confirmation of the grapple in addition to the rake damage, or does the rake REPLACE the ability to deal damage as a part of a successful grapple?
As an example:
A Dire Tiger pounces an enemy, getting his 2 claws, his bite, and his rake and grabs the enemy.
On the next turn the tiger confirms the grapple:
Does the tiger
1: Deal Rake damage automatically and deal lets say Bite damage automatically
2: Deal Rake damage automatically but no Bite damage from maintaining the grapple
3: Roll to hit with it's Rake attacks and deal Bite damage automatically
4: Roll to hit with it's Rake attacks but not deal automatic Bite damage from maintaining the grapple
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Question 1:
Okay, let's take a look at the Grab ability:
A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well.The wording is a little awkward. So in subsequent rounds, if the creature doesn't constrict, each successful check automatically does the damage from the attack that grabbed. That much is clear. However, if it does constrict, it does constrict damage as well. If we look at the constrict ability, we see that it does its damage "in addition to any other effects caused by a successful check, including additional damage." So it appears that each successful check should deal damage from both.
Also, nowhere in either ability does it say these effects replace the existing options you have when grappling. So you once you make your check and deal the automatic damage from grab/constrict, you should still have your regular options to move, pin, or deal damage.
See, I find that interesting because I read it differently in that you can chose to either constrict or deal the grab damage, but not both.
So what you're saying is that on a successful grapple check to maintain a grapple, a monster with grab and constrict can
1st: Deal constrict damage
2nd: Deal grab damage with the limb used to conduct the grapple
3rd: Deal damage with a natural attack as part of the damage option to maintain the grapple.
now, since the 3rd ability lets you pick which natural attack to deal the damage with, can you select the same limb that you used to conduct the hold in step 2?
Because for example, if a giant squid is grappling a player, can it on a successful check to maintain:
1st: Deal constrict damage (4d6+10)
2nd: Deal grab damage with the limb used to conduct the grapple (4d6+3)
3rd: Deal damage with it's tentacles again as the free damage it gets when it maintains the grapple (another 4d6+3)
If so, that's rather brutal, especially given that the grab will already have yank the grabbed player 30ft away from the party and adjacent to the squid.
Question 2:
Rake says that it gives the creature "two free claw attacks" to use against grappled creatures. This tells us that they're actually attacks, so they need to be rolled. It also tells us that they're free, so no need to sacrifice any other actions to perform it. Now, it doesn't specifically say it must be in conjunction with a grapple check. So, with the way it's written, you could start your turn in a grapple, use Rake to make two attacks, and then release the grapple as a free action and take whatever other actions you like.So a creature with grab, constrict, and rake were maintaining a grapple, it would roll once to maintain, dealing grab and constrict damage automatically with the option to deal damage a third time as part of the grapple check. It would also roll two attacks to rake (taking into account...
Ok, I think that makes sense.
My understanding of this has always been that you get Grab damage (as per the grapple option damage) + Constrict damage.
There are people that disagree with this and state it is Grab damage + Constrict damage + grapple option (for a second roll of damage).
I find this to probably be not the intent since the Grab option does not state you can do this. I interpret it as Grab limits you to the damage option of grapple checks.
Again, others disagree.
As for constrict, yes it is added to the Grab damage. Then tack on Rake. The Behir is a particularly nasty customer because of all of this.
- Gauss
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My understanding of this has always been that you get Grab damage (as per the grapple option damage) + Constrict damage.
There are people that disagree with this and state it is Grab damage + Constrict damage + grapple option (for a second roll of damage).
I find this to probably be not the intent since the Grab option does not state you can do this. I interpret it as Grab limits you to the damage option of grapple checks.
Again, others disagree.
As for constrict, yes it is added to the Grab damage. Then tack on Rake. The Behir is a particularly nasty customer because of all of this.
- Gauss
Well, the issue is that the constrict text says "A creature with this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, when it makes a successful grapple check (in addition to any other effects caused by a successful check, including additional damage). The amount of damage is given in the creature's entry and is typically equal to the amount of damage caused by the creature's melee attack."
Since it says "in addition to any other effects cause by a successful check, including additional damage" I get the impression you can cause the grapple option damage as well.
After all, there's nothing in the rules that suggest that you can't do Grab Damage and Constrict Damage, while shifting from a grapple to a pin. If that is the case, why can you not deal damage a 3rd time with your grapple option instead of pinning the creature?
So Elamdri lets look at Grab:
lets look at Grab: It does not say this. It says a successful check does damage. The problem is with Grab. Not constrict. I believe that with Grab, you are allowed one single option: Damage. Not Pin, not anything else. Just damage.
Would I allow an intelligent creature with Grab to do something else besides straight damage (such as Pin)? Sure. But, that is GM Fiat.
Summary: My point is the grab option to do damage IS the grapple option but with the choice of options reduced to just one: damage. Of course, this is my opinion. Grab is written very poorly. My opinion is that the grapple damage option is exactly how the Grab damage is being performed. Granting the creature a SECOND damage option for a successful grapple check is overpowered and makes Grab even more dangerous than it should be.
Note: I am not discussing Constrict, this is all about grab. Constrict is an extra ability and its extra damage should occur. But the problem is does Grab do damage + grapple option (damage)? Or just damage?
- Gauss
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Gauss:
After reading this over again, I think I might have something here:
The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).
If you read the text, it says that the creature can conduct the grapple normally, or do a hold, where it grapples at a -20 but doesn't gain the grappled condition.
Why I believe this is important is that if you read the rest of the text, it says that you deal grab damage with the limb that established the HOLD.
So here's my thought:
I think if you are a creature with grab, you have 2 options:
Option 1: You may, when you land an attack, chose to grapple normally. Under this scenario, when you succeed on a grapple, you may deal constrict damage and take a grapple option, be it pin or extra damage.
Option 2: You may instead hold the creature. If you do so, you may deal grab damage on a successful hold and constrict damage if you have it, but you get no grapple option.
Would you agree with that interpretation of the text?
I see no immediate flaws with that interpretation. But I am rather tired. :)
- Gauss