Trying to put some flares in the road, just had a friend and I hit this particular pothole, so filling it in a bit and laying flares...
That's the signpost up ahead, you've just passed into...
The Natural Weapons Zone.
Apparently the Natural Weapons issue is still too hard to find answers to. When (as just happened) two smart guys read the same thread, with the same posts by the same dev, and come away with different answers... then the answers are still hard to find.
Maybe that's because nobody (well ok, the devs) is ever thinking of the system as a whole, because we've all got our own interests whenever the issues come up. So we're all automatically looking to confirm or deny something we want or don't want. So well-intentioned guidelines become tripwires.
So I'm setting a goal of covering some of the possibilities for Natural Weapons, in the hope that I can get a dev to confirm the compiled clarification.
So what follows is my understanding. Please correct me, or confirm.
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The source of your natural weapon will tell you the damage, the damage type(pierce/slash/bludgeon), and the primary or secondary status of the natural attack.
And that's where begins the confusion that brought me here. The damage stays the same, or anything changing the damage declares itself clearly. The damage type stays the same. But the Primary/Secondary thing? It's changeable. And the changes aren't marked well.
Not changeable by a feat, or a class feature, or anything you really control. The change is based on the number of Natural Weapons you have, and whether you're using them with other (manufactured) weapons.
If you only have one NW, and use it alone, it will always be at full BAB, and 1.5*STR to damage. I would guess the devs are thinking a parallel to a two-handed weapon, here. It doesn't matter whether the one NW is 'Primary' or 'Secondary', because it's _only_, so it's treated superiorly, even better than Primary. This changes if you use the NW with other manufactured weapons. In this case, too, it doesn't matter whether the NW is Primary or Secondary, because using the manufactured weapon makes it Secondary.
A couple of examples are in order:
Slappy the Alchemist-Clown has a tentacle (defined as secondary, but it is his only NW) attack, and a poisoned dagger, readied in one of his hands, but held behind his back, hidden in a bouquet of flowers. (That wacky Slappy...) If Slappy attacks with only the tentacle, he uses his full BAB and gets 1.5*STR added to damage. Or if Slappy instead attacks with the dagger, the dagger uses his full BAB, 1*STR added to damage. On the turn he attacks with the dagger, he can also attack with the tentacle at -5 to BAB, .5*STR to damage.
Poochy is Slappy's partner. Same tentacle, same dagger. (They were on sale) But Poochy has a magical set of vampire fangs that give him a bite (primary) attack. Poochy can attack with the bite alone, and he'd use full BAB and get 1*STR to damage. He can also attack with bite and tentacle, the bite at full BAB, 1*STR, and the tentacle at -5 to hit, .5*STR to damage. But being very fond of his poisoned dagger, Poochy prefers to attack with it, and bite, and slap with his tentacle. The dagger is full BAB, 1*STR for damage, the bite at -5 to hit, .5*STR for damage, and the tentacle at -5, .5*STR for damage.
If you have multiple NW, all the 'Primary' NW will all be at full BAB, and 1.0*STR to damage. All the 'Secondary' NW will all be at -5 to hit and .5*STR to damage. And if you pick up and use a manufactured weapon, all your NW, whether Primary or Secondary, are at -5, and .5*STR to damage. You can hold and not use a manufactured weapon while attacking with your NW attacks, but you cannot use a NW based on the same limb used to hold or wield something.
To sum up: There are really three kinds of Natural Weapons; Primary, Secondary, and 'Only have one'. Primary is full BAB, 1*STR bonus to damage. Secondary is -5 to hit, .5*STR bonus to damage. And 'Only have one' is full BAB, 1.5*STR bonus to damage. And using a manufactured weapon makes ALL Natural Weapons into Secondaries.
I think. :)
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Trying to put some flares in the road, just had a friend and I hit this particular pothole, so filling it in a bit and laying flares...
That's the signpost up ahead, you've just passed into...
The Natural Weapons Zone.
Apparently the Natural Weapons issue is still too hard to find answers to. When (as just happened) two smart guys read the same thread, with the same posts by the same dev, and come away with different answers... then the answers are still hard to find.
Maybe that's because nobody (well ok, the devs) is ever thinking of the system as a whole, because we've all got our own interests whenever the issues come up. So we're all automatically looking to confirm or deny something we want or don't want. So well-intentioned guidelines become tripwires.
So I'm setting a goal of covering some of the possibilities for Natural Weapons, in the hope that I can get a dev to confirm the compiled clarification.
So what follows is my understanding. Please correct me, or confirm.
-----
The source of your natural weapon will tell you the damage, the damage type(pierce/slash/bludgeon), and the primary or secondary status of the natural attack.
And that's where begins the confusion that brought me here. The damage stays the same, or anything changing the damage declares itself clearly. The damage type stays the same. But the Primary/Secondary thing? It's changeable. And the changes aren't marked well.
Not changeable by a feat, or a class feature, or anything you really control. The change is based on the number of Natural Weapons you have, and whether you're using them with other (manufactured) weapons.
If you only have one NW, and use it alone, it will always be at full BAB, and 1.5*STR to damage. I would guess the devs are thinking a parallel to a two-handed weapon, here. It doesn't matter whether the one NW is 'Primary' or 'Secondary', because it's _only_, so it's treated superiorly, even better than Primary. This changes if you use the NW with other manufactured...
This... this is making insanely good sense. :-P
Yep, you seem to have gotten everything correct. It IS a little strange that simply having another natural attack (even if you're not currently attacking with it) means you deal less damage with your main one, but them's the rules.
This... this is making insanely good sense. :-P
Thanks. I just tried to find and boil off what seemed to be the most confusing bits. The doctrine of 'specific trumps general' tends to lead to confusion when each new splatbook has a raft of new specifics. Of course, SOME of those specific cases are intended to trump preexisting generalities, but some might not be so intended. Absent a hierarchical index from 'general' to 'specific', interpretations can vary.
Yep, you seem to have gotten everything correct. It IS a little strange that simply having another natural attack (even if you're not currently attacking with it) means you deal less damage with your main one, but them's the rules.
There's layers of reasoning and justification that I think apply. I think the game-balance reason is that a lonely NW ought not be lame, but that anyone with two or more is probably arranging for some sort of leverage (backstab, touch spells, and such), so nerfing a bit is wise. And then, if you pick up a magic blade, all your NW turn Secondary, because you'll only grab the sword when it benefits you overall.
RP-wise, I see the single attack as something you focus on. Like a leech's bite, or a cat's claws, and you lose that focus when gaining another method. That's gets me through most of the scenarios I thought about, but if you imagine Slappy borrowing Poochy's vampire teeth, you have to reason that the dentures hurt, or something. :)
I've just had it suggested to me that the 'Only' status I speak of is intended to apply to monsters with only one NW, not to humans(etc) who somehow get only one NW. It's certainly arguable.
If I'm late to this party, and all this has already been hashed out definitively, please do point me to the thread.
And in my continuing ponderings and wanderings, I've learned my clowns are cheating. (Never trust a clown) Tentacles from the Alchemist discovery are specifically declared to never grant additional attacks.
That makes Slappy's options:
1) Slap with the tentacle with full BAB, 1.5*STR to damage
2) Stab with the dagger-bouquet with full BAB, 1*STR
And Poochy's options:
1) Slap with the tentacle with -5 to BAB, .5*STR to damage
2) Bite with the trick teeth with full BAB, 1*STR to damage
3) Stab with the dagger-bouquet with full BAB, 1*STR, and also bite at -5 to BAB, .5*STR to damage
And introducing a new clown, Fangs. Fangs doesn't have any tentacle. But he does have the standard-clown-guild issue dagger bouquet and big floppy shoes, and a set of teeth like Poochy. Fangs' options:
1) Bite with the trick teeth at full BAB, 1.5STR to damage
2) Stab with the dagger at full BAB, 1*STR to damage, and also bite at -5 to BAB, .5*STR to damage
Poochy is complaining here, he says that his class feature tentacle has diminished the power of his magic item bite attack, as if the tentacle were another natural attack, but that the tentacle doesn't give the other benefits of the natural attack. To this, I can only say, 'Yes. That is exactly correct.'
Is it?
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I've just had it suggested to me that the 'Only' status I speak of is intended to apply to monsters with only one NW, not to humans(etc) who somehow get only one NW. It's certainly arguable.
If I'm late to this party, and all this has already been hashed out definitively, please do point me to the thread.
There was a clarification from SKR about the 'only' rule not applying to humanoids because they've always got unarmed strikes or something like that.... I'm gonna dig through my lists, see if I can find it. As I recall it was in response to someone asking if a half-orc with the Toothy racial trait should be getting STRx1.5 since it's his only natural attack.
I think your summation covers the rules pretty thoroughly though, good job. This is one of those crazy issues that seems to come up all the time.
If you only have one NW, and use it alone, it will always be at full BAB, and 1.5*STR to damage.
Is this stated in the rules somewhere? I thought it was possible to have only a single secondary attack, for instance.
If you only have one NW, and use it alone, it will always be at full BAB, and 1.5*STR to damage.Is this stated in the rules somewhere? I thought it was possible to have only a single secondary attack, for instance.
Natural weapon universal monster rules.
Natural Attacks Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon). These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks. Primary attacks are made using the creature's full base attack bonus and add the creature's full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Secondary attacks are made using the creature's base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature's full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one. If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type. Table: Natural Attacks by Size lists some of the most common types of natural attacks and their classifications.
EDIT:It's why horses have to have the Docile trait to make their hooves secondary.
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Thanks all for continued input and attention to this. Current summary follows:
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THREE KINDS OF NATURAL WEAPON(NW):
It might help to think in terms of three kinds of Natural Weapons; Primary, Secondary, and 'Only have one'. Primary is full BAB, 1*STR bonus to damage. Secondary is -5 to hit, .5*STR bonus to damage. And 'Only have one' is full BAB, 1.5*STR bonus to damage.
IF YOU HAVE ONLY ONE NW:
If you only have one Natural Weapon(NW), and use it without any other melee or ranged attacks, it will always be at full BAB, and 1.5*STR to damage. I would guess the devs are thinking a parallel to a two-handed weapon, here. It doesn't matter whether the one NW is 'Primary' or 'Secondary', because it's _only_, so it's treated superiorly, even better than Primary. This changes if you use the NW with other melee or ranged attacks. In this case, too, it doesn't matter whether the NW is Primary or Secondary, because using the other attack(s) makes it Secondary.
IF YOU HAVE MULTIPLE NW:
If you have multiple NW, all the 'Primary' NW will all be at full BAB, and 1.0*STR to damage. All the 'Secondary' NW will all be at -5 to hit and .5*STR to damage. BUT if you use NW with other attacks, all your NW, whether Primary or Secondary, are at -5, and .5*STR to damage. You can hold and not use a manufactured weapon while attacking with your NW attacks, but you cannot use a NW based on the same limb used to hold or wield something.
NW WITH OTHER ATTACKS:
Using any non-NW melee or ranged attack makes ALL Natural Weapons into Secondaries, -5 from BAB, .5*STR to damage.
Actually, it says that the Alchemist discovery doesn't grant an additional actions or attacks.
So, by RAW, I would interpret this tentacle discovery as not even allowing a secondary natural attack should our clowns use their manufactured weapons (or even other natural attacks) in the same round, that the only time the tentacle can be used is if it is the only attack being used in any particular round.
The Tentacle Discovery seems to be an exception to the normal natural attack/manufactured weapons rules you are working to interpret (which is spot on).
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Latest update (Should I just make a new thread?):
THREE KINDS OF NATURAL WEAPON(NW):
It might help to think in terms of three kinds of Natural Weapons; Primary, Secondary, and 'Solitary'. Primary is full BAB, 1*STR bonus to damage. Secondary is -5 to hit, .5*STR bonus to damage. And 'Solitary' is full BAB, 1.5*STR bonus to damage.
IF YOU HAVE ONLY ONE NATURAL WEAPON:
If you only have one Natural Weapon, and use it without any other melee or ranged attacks, it will always be at full BAB, and 1.5*STR to damage. I would guess the devs are thinking a parallel to a two-handed weapon, here. It doesn't matter whether the one NW is 'Primary' or 'Secondary', because it's _only_, so it's treated superiorly, even better than Primary. I'm calling this type 'Solitary'. This superior status changes if you use the NW with other melee or ranged attacks. In this case, too, it doesn't matter whether the NW is Primary or Secondary, because using the other attack(s) makes it Secondary.
IF YOU HAVE MULTIPLE NW:
If you have multiple NW, all the 'Primary' NW will all be at full BAB, and 1.0*STR to damage. All the 'Secondary' NW will all be at -5 to hit and .5*STR to damage. BUT if you use NW with other attacks, all your NW, whether Primary or Secondary, are at -5, and .5*STR to damage. You can hold and not use a manufactured weapon while attacking with your NW attacks, but you cannot use a NW based on the same limb used to hold or wield something.
NW WITH OTHER ATTACKS:
Using any non-NW melee or ranged attack makes ALL Natural Weapons into Secondaries, -5 from BAB, .5*STR to damage. This means any manufactured or improvised weapon, any ranged weapon, any unarmed strike, turns all your NW into -5 BAB, .5*STR to damage.
NATURAL WEAPONS THAT BREAK THESE RULES:
Some sources of NW have limitations, or arrived early or late and have different phrasing, or might be subject to the 'specific trumps general' doctrine. I'm not going to try to list them all. But I will try to list some of them.
Alchemist Discoveries: Tentacles is a Secondary NW that specifically says it can't increase your number of attacks. It can sub in for another attack, which might make it Solitary. This is otherwise a bad deal until you have 11 BAB, but you might want the Grab function, if you've gotten reach, somehow. Vestigial Limb is not a NW, I mention it just for completeness, and to point out that it also can't increase the number of your attacks. Feral Mutagen, now we're talking NW. Feral Mutagen obeys the guidelines above.
Witch Hexes: Prehensile Hair is a Secondary NW that uses INT instead of STR, so it's BAB-5+INT to hit, and .5*INT to damage, if you have any other NW, or use any other sort of weapon, unarmed, or ranged attacks at the same time. If you only have the hair as a NW, it would be a 'Solitary' NW, and be full BAB, 1.5*INT to damage, unless your GM reads it as 'specific trumping general', or 'Solitary only applies to monsters', and therefore always Secondary. Nails is also a Secondary NW, which might be Solitary, or might not if it's two hands worth of nails (two attacks, so not Solitary). I mean, of course the nails are on both hands, but that doesn't mean the Hex gives two attacks. So, Nails might be one Solitary NW, one Secondary NW, or two Secondary NW, depending on who your GM is.
FAQ attention request, trying to phrase for clear yes/no as is proper for Commune:
1) Is the superior full-BAB, 1.5*STR power of solitary natural weapons applicable to non-NW PC races that somehow acquire a NW attack?
2) Can a BAB 11 Alchemist with Tentacle and a dagger in one hand Full Attack with an attack sequence of Dagger +11/Dagger +6/ Tentacle +6? What about Dagger +11/Tentacle +6/Tentacle+6? What about Tentacle+6/Tentacle+6/Tentacle+6?