A way to enlarge person an Outsider (native)


Rules Questions


Ok,
So I'm going to get to play again for a change soon, and I'm working up a new character, and I think I accidently found a way to make my Fetchling (Outsider (Native)) a valid target of Enlarge, and I want to post and see if anyone can find a hole in my logic.

Race : Fetchling
Class : Synthesist Summoner

Now, none of the Synthesis changes affect the 'Share Spells' ability. This ability states :

Share Spells wrote:


The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself. A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon's type (outsider). Spells cast in this way must come from the summoner spell list. This ability does not allow the eidolon to share abilities that are not spells, even if they function like spells.

Now, I could see an argument that the second sentence only modifies the first one, but it's not spelled out, and I've always interpreted it (when I was running) that they were two different permissions (cast things that affect you only on your eidelon, and also use spells that don't affect outsiders, like enlarge person, on them).

So, since the Eidelon and Summoner are the same, and are affected the same (note you can cast Restore Eidelon on yourself to cure temp hp, and it's Eidelon only), it seems to me that a synthesist summoner can cast enlarge person on himself while fused with his eidelon, thanks to the share spells class feature (although he couldn't while not fused).

Grand Lodge

The exception ONLY applies to the Eidolon, not yourself. While you can "share" the spell, the spell still will not affect you because you're not in the Humanoid subtype. Nor can you use Restore Eidolon on yourself unless you're s Synthesist Summoner (and that only heals your Eidolon suit, not your meat body inside.)


Ultimate Magic p80 Synthesist wrote:
He counts as both his original type and as an outsider for any effect related to type, whichever is worse for the synthesist.

and

Ultimate Magic p80 Synthesist wrote:
Neither the synthesist nor his eidolon can be targeted separately, as they are fused into one creature.

Since you are an outsider/outsider you cannot be targeted with Enlarge Person and you cannot target the Eidolon separately Enlarge Person would not work.

Even if you target the Eidolon separately (when it is not merged) you would not be able to merge with it due to the restriction that you must both be the same size.

- Gauss


Synthesist faq

Dunno if that answers it, but it might help.


CrystalSpellblade: Unless I am mistaken that is written from the perspective of humanoid/outsider rather than outsider/outsider. It is meant to establish that spells that do not normally affect the eidolon do in fact affect it due to share spells.

- Gauss


Thanks CrystalSpellblade, I had missed that in the FAQ. So until and unless a different FAQ comes out, it appears an Outsider (Native) Synth Summoner can enlarge person himself while he's fused (but not when he's not fused) thanks to the ability of the share spells.


Gauss wrote:

CrystalSpellblade: Unless I am mistaken that is written from the perspective of humanoid/outsider rather than outsider/outsider. It is meant to establish that spells that do not normally affect the eidolon do in fact affect it due to share spells.

- Gauss

I figured it was probably the case, but I figured it might help out somewhat.


I don't agree, the Synthesist is treated as his race or Outsider, whichever is worst for him. Even when he's treated as an outsider (in the case of human/outsider), then he still benefits from the Enlarge Person due to the share spells class feature. Sean did not say that he is affected because he's still human, he said he's affected because even though he's treated as an outsider the class feature let's him cast it on himself. Ergo, an outsider/outsider should have the same effect, for the same reason, the class ability let's him affect the eidelon (which is also himself) with spells that affect humanoids.


mdt, you asked, we answered. We do not have to agree. :)

In any case the FAQ also left the size issue open. Due to size differences you probably are still ineligible.

- Gauss


My post was to the perspective it was written from. I'm all for you being able to cast the spell on your synthesist.


Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to cheese anything, this isn't a hi-order game, so I can take it easy (I expect to be the face and the tank at the same time with this build). I was just trying to pick what spells to learn, and was going to toss enlarge person on the 'utterly useless' pile until I happened to read share spells again. :)

I think it probably needs to be errata'd, but, how to do it without rewriting the synthesist archetype is the question.


I personally think Enlarge Person shouldnt be humanoid only. For that matter I houserule that all 'humanoid only' spells work if you are remotely humanoid shape such as most outsiders and many fey etc.

- Gauss

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