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I put this under movies, but I feel it fits with he books, too.
I just saw the Hobbit again today. How come the eagles that picked them up dropped them off on that hill instead of right at the mountain they were trying to get to? Mountain looked about another 50 miles away. As far as the eagles and everyone else knew, Smuag was gone for 60 years. So there should have not been fear of him to get closer.
In FotR Gandalf calls on the eagles again for i ride off the tower he was trapped on. But yet they give no reason why they could not just get on the eagles and fly over mt. doom and drop the ring in.
Then the eagles show up at the black gates at end of return of the king to bail the heroes out AGAIN.
Anyone else fell like JRRT just used the eagles for when it was convenant to get the characters out of jams they could not otherwise get out of?
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Mirkwood is a no-fly zone? The eagles were kind of used as an 'ex machina,' it seems, hence Gandalf not starting out the Fellowship of the Ring by saying on page six, 'Okay Gwaiher, go drop this ring in the big volcano in Mordor, we'll wait here in the Shire,' and the book ending on page seven.
There wasn't much time between Gandalf whispering to that moth and the eagles showing up, all things considered. What's the airspeed velocity of an unladen moth, and do all moths know how to locate and communicate with giant eagles, or just whatever moth Gandalf happens to have whispered a message to?
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I understand there would be no plot, story, ect.. But I am saying is if a writer is using such a easy out to get the characters out of a tight spot, to me the logic of the story breaks down and I ask myself why they don't just use that to get where they need to go?
I did not see anything mentioned in the LOTR movies, or Felllowship book as to why they could not just fly over mt doom and drop the ring in.
I know JRRT mentioned in a later book as to why. But if its not stated in the part of the story where its used, to me the whole story breaks down and makes no sense.
I would have accepted pretty much any reason as to why they could not use the eagles. The nazgul would intercept them. Saurns eye would see them and they would be killed, ect.. But no reason is given, I see major logic in story. When that happens I can't enjoy the story.
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To quote the book:
The Lord of the Eagles would not take them anywhere near where men lived. "They would shoot at us with their great bows of yew,' he said, 'for they would think we were after their sheep. And at other times they would be right. No! we are glad to cheat the goblins of their sport, and glad to repay our thanks to you, but we will not risk ourselves for dwarves in the southward plains."
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As for LotR: Because the eagles are not Gandalf's "friends" precisely. They owed him a favor. Enough of a favor to pull him down from a tower and fly him off to safety.
Not enough of a favor to fly into enemy territory overhead of a giant army who likely has bows sitting around waiting to be used, and the eye of the most evil creature that ever existed in their universe. And the Nazgul.
It's in the book somewhere. Not in Fellowship, it's in either Two Towers or Return of the King.
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I don't remember the exact scene from the book, but I had to struggle to hold back a laugh when the camera panned around the rock the birds put them down at. Worst. Dropzone. Ever.
"Okay, seriously. You had to put us down on a friggin mountaintop? You couldn't at least have dropped us off on the ground? Gee, thanks."
At least there was a little staircase down, but still. Sheesh.
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Worst. Dropzone. Ever.
That's why they owe Gandalf a favour.
Worst. Dropzone. Ever.That's why they owe Gandalf a favour.
I can buy that. :)
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The explanation for The Hobbit has already been given. As for the Fellowship, there are two reasons given.
First is that Sauron would have seen them coming. The only reason the eagles were able to get into Mordor at the very end was because Sauron's forces were scattered.
Second is that nobody on Middle-Earth would have had the willpower to actually toss the ring into Mount Doom. Sauron's will at that point got so strong that even Frodo couldn't do it - Gollum wound up inadvertently forcing him to. So if you have an eagle get there, you'd ultimately wind up with an eagle corrupted by the ring.
Somewhere in his notes, Tolkien wrote a bunch of what-if scenarios involving others holding the ring at Mount Doom, including Frodo if Gollum hadn't been there and Gandalf himself. None of them ended happily for the heroes.
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I think flying an eagle to Mt. Doom in front of an ever watching eye that has a 10,000 strong orc army with anti-Eagle artillery, 9 Nazgul mounted on Fellbeasts, and who knows what else at his command would have a very high fail rate. Also, the Eagles weren't stupid beasts. They were intelligent and would instantly recognize that it would be a suicide mission.
He obviously had to level up some before his summon spells to work right.
:P
In FotR Gandalf calls on the eagles again for i ride off the tower he was trapped on. But yet they give no reason why they could not just get on the eagles and fly over mt. doom and drop the ring in.
The eagles couldn't have dropped Frodo and the ring at Mount Doom because the eye of Sauron would have seen them, their position would be known, and then they would have had all of black riders as well as any other flying beasts after them. Then they die. The end.
The only reason why the eagles could save Frodo and Sam at the end was because the Dark Riders were busy (busy dying) and the armies of Sauron were at war (and losing badly). No war, no eagles.
In The Hobbit, you're correct, the eagles could have dropped them off. Maybe they left their young unattended? Who knows? The eagles are a little too Deus Ex Machina for my tastes, which is probably why we try to avoid that situation in gaming.
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Oglaf goes Lord of the Rings. This one is safe; just don't browse the rest of the webcomic at work...
I think the dilemma has been adressed with surpassing clarity by Callous Jack and Rynjin.
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On a (slightly) note to the side-
did anyone else notice that "the hill" the eagles put them on was carved into the shape of a bear's head? aka Beorn?
I don't think it was "some random rock with stairs" in as much as it was carrying them (and their wounded dorf) to someone with the ability and possible inclination to help.
(though I don't remember such a rock from the books..)
-S
I don't think it was "some random rock with stairs" in as much as it was carrying them (and their wounded dorf) to someone with the ability and possible inclination to help.
(though I don't remember such a rock from the books..)
-S
The company was dropped on the Carrock, both in the movie and the book. Indeed it's held in more esteem than "just a rock" by the Northmen.
The Carrock is on the territory of Beron. While Beorn might not appreciate the intrusion, his land is probably the safest (for the free people) between the Lothlorien and the Kingdom of the Woodland Elves of Mirkwood.
As for LotR: Because the eagles are not Gandalf's "friends" precisely. They owed him a favor. Enough of a favor to pull him down from a tower and fly him off to safety.
Not enough of a favor to fly into enemy territory overhead of a giant army who likely has bows sitting around waiting to be used, and the eye of the most evil creature that ever existed in their universe. And the Nazgul.
It's in the book somewhere. Not in Fellowship, it's in either Two Towers or Return of the King.
The reason an eagle went to Orthanc was not because Gandalf summoned him but because, before going to Orthanc, Gandalf asked Radagast to find out what evil beings were up to in the world and send news there. The eagle was doing Radagast a favour, not Gandalf (OK, the film departed from this).
"'How far can you bear me?' I said to Gwaihir.
"'Many leagues,' said he, 'but not to the ends of the earth. I was sent to bear tidings not burdens.'"
Gwaihir took Gandalf to Rohan where he borrowed Shadowfax and rode to Rivendell. No decision had been taken about the Ring when Gandalf escaped Orthanc. There were subsequently no eagles at the Council of Elrond and to reach the eagles a messenger would have had to cross the Misty Mountains.