Show me this wizard you speak of.
A summoner is also not a wizard variant. It actually used the bard chassis if anything.A summoner is NOT a Bard variant, despite the Charisma dependency. You could make a case that it is a Sorcerer variant instead, but that would require ignoring the truth that the Sorceer is a Wizard variant in the first place.
The few 6th level Bard Spells that Summoner gets are 4th level Summoner Spells. Most of a Summoner's non-unique Spells are on the Wizard/Sorcerer list but NOT the Bard list.
The Wizard gets Appraise as a Class Skill while the Summoner gets Ride and Use Magic Device, but otherwise their Class Skill lists are identical.
You've got an awful long row to hoe to convince me that the Summomner has more in common with the Bardic abilities than he does the Wizard.
I never said it was a bard variant. My point was that mechanically with 6 levels of spells, a medium BAB and the good will save it is closer to a bard.
It is definitely not a wizard or sorcerer.
Personally I think it is its own thing.
And STILL no details I see.
So, you're going to ignore the fact that the variant WIZARD class is a better melee combatant than a Fighter and respond with personal insults as a way of supporting your decision to ignore this reality?You asked for them. Both characters are Level 12. Attributes and Magic Items not relating to the question of damage output are ignored.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...
You would get more damage out of that fighter with the two weapon rend feat, using the same weapon for both hands, such as a kukri, and using the Weapon Master Archetype.
But then you get into the really weird fact that they wanted it to be a 9 level caster, but the eidolon was too powerful for that, so they had to hamfist the spells into lower levels.
Which you know, has worked out perfectly and definitely doesn't break quite a few core assumptions.
@hustonj:
OK, I used what information was available and what I understood from you to do my own analysis.
I used the following formula for dpr:
h(d+s)+tchk(d+l)
where
h = Chance to hit, expressed as a percentage
d = Damage per hit. Average damage is assumed.
s = Precision damage per hit (or other damage that isn't multiplied on a crit). Average damage is again assumed.
t = Chance to roll a critical threat, expressed as a percentage.
c = Critical hit bonus damage. x2 = 1, x3 = 2, x4 = 3.
l = Critical extra damage (e.g. from burst abilities)
k = Chance to confirm critical hit
Note that I used 0.95*min(1;h) and 0.95*min(1;k) for h and k respectively to factor in that a 1 always misses.
Looking at what you posted from TWW build, I assume 15 point-buy and a stat array as follows:
Str Dex Con Int Wis Cha
13 24 14 10 10 10
Dex includes the +4 belt you mentioned, started with 15, +2 racial, 3 level bumps.
Feats:
1 Exotic weapon proficiency: Wakizashi
1 weapon finesse
1 Two-weapon fighting
2 double slice
3 power attack
4 Weapon focus: Wakizashi
5 Weapon specialization: Wakizashi
6 Improved two-weapon fighting
7 quick draw
8 Greater weapon focus: wakizashi
9 Improved critical: wakizashi
10 critical focus
11 Greater two-weapon fighting
12 Greater weapon specialization: wakizashi
I know you did not choose PA, but it does not matter here when it is not used.
We get for attack:
BAB 12
DEX 7
Sword 1
GWF 2
Sum 22
Twin Blades 2
Penalty TWF -1
Endresult 23
And for damage:
Damage
DEX 7
Swords 1
GWS 4
Twin Blades 2
Sum 14
Your synthesist 10/paladin 2 build has an eidolon with 8HD and thus BAB 8. The strength seems to be 28, bumped to 32 with a +4 belt of strength, so you end at +11, with bab you have +19 attack.
With a large +2 flaming burst katana you get
+21/+16 (2d6+1.5x11+2=2d6+17)
You have a +1 AoMF and multiattack, your natural attacks all become secondary attacks at -2 and half strength. So you end up with
Bite 1d8+5+1+1d6 acid=1d8+6+1d6 acid
Tentacles x4 1d6+5+1+1d6 acid=1d6+6+1d6 acid
I believe energy damage is multiplied on a critical hit, so I will include that in the next steps.
I assume AC 27 (level 12 +15 AC) to hit.
This brings us to the following:
TWW
Attack bonuses (w/o PA) 23 23 18 18 13 13
Chance to hit h= 0,8092592593 0,8092592593 0,6333333333 0,6333333333 0,4574074074 0,4574074074
damage per hit d= 17,5 17,5 17,5 17,5 17,5 17,5
precision/extra damage s= 0 0 0 0 0 0
Chance for critical hit t= 0,25 0,25 0,25 0,25 0,25 0,25
Critical hit bonus c= 1 1 1 1 1 1
Chance to confirm a critical hit k= 0,95 0,95 0,7740740741 0,7740740741 0,5981481481 0,5981481481
Extra crit damage l= 0 0 0 0 0 0
Formula h(d+s)+thck(d+l) 17,5255208333 17,5255208333 13,2281635802 13,2281635802 9,201618227 9,201618227
The sum for this comes to 79,9106052812
Synthesist/Paladin
Attack order listed is
Katana/Katana/Bite/Claw/Claw/Claw/Claw
Attack bonuses (w/o PA) 21 16 18 18 18 18 18
Chance to hit h= 0,7388888889 0,562962963 0,6333333333 0,6333333333 0,6333333333 0,6333333333 0,6333333333
damage per hit d= 27,5 27,5 14 13 13 13 13
precision/extra damage s= 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Chance for critical hit t= 0,15 0,15 0,05 0,05 0,05 0,05 0,05
Critical hit bonus c= 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
Chance to confirm a critical hit k= 0,8796296296 0,7037037037 0,7740740741 0,7740740741 0,7740740741 0,7740740741 0,7740740741
Extra crit damage l= 5,5 5,5 0 0 0 0 0
Formula h(d+s)+thck(d+l) 23,5366898148 17,4424691358 9,2098395062 8,5519938272 8,5519938272 8,5519938272 8,5519938272
The sum for this comes to 84,3969737654
So your build gets beaten by the eidolon by about 5 points.
If you took power attack, your DPR increases to 81,1800085734.
As I stated, your equipment is sub-par and not comparable to that of the synthesist. If we give it just a minor bump, you get the following:
TWW - +2 agile wakizashis instead of +1 agile wakizashis
Without PA
Attack bonuses (w/o PA) 24 24 19 19 14 14
Chance to hit h= 0,8444444444 0,8444444444 0,6685185185 0,6685185185 0,4925925926 0,4925925926
damage per hit d= 18,5 18,5 18,5 18,5 18,5 18,5
precision/extra damage s= 0 0 0 0 0 0
Chance for critical hit t= 0,25 0,25 0,25 0,25 0,25 0,25
Critical hit bonus c= 1 1 1 1 1 1
Chance to confirm a critical hit k= 0,95 0,95 0,8092592593 0,8092592593 0,6333333333 0,6333333333
Extra crit damage l= 0 0 0 0 0 0
Formula h(d+s)+thck(d+l) 19,3325 19,3325 14,8697397977 14,8697397977 10,5558487654 10,5558487654
This already results in a dpr of 89,5161771262
When you use power attack, it goes to 91,3080804184.
Interestingly, if you had taken the standard fighter with weapon training and gloves of dueling, you get 104,8283950617 dpr, with power attack you get 106,0786093964.
Finally, because you mentioned it repeatedly, a THF build:
15 point-buy Stats Str Dex Con Int Wis Cha
Human 24 10 14 10 13 10
Includes belt +4 str
1 Exotic weapon proficiency: Falcata
1 Power attack
1 Furious focus
2 Weapon focus: Falcata
3 quick draw
4 Weapon specialization: Falcata
5 unassigned
6 unassigned
7 unassigned
8 Greater weapon focus: falcata
9 Improved critical: falcata
10 critical focus
11 Bleeding Critical
12 Greater weapon specialization: falcata
Assumed: +3 Falcata
Attack bonus calculated as follows:
BAB 12
Strength 7
Sword 3
GWF 2
Sum 24
Gloves of dueling 2
Weapon training 2
Endresult 28
Without Power attack you get
Attack bonuses 28 23 18
Chance to hit h= 0,95 0,8092592593 0,6333333333
damage per hit d= 29,5 29,5 29,5
precision/extra damage s= 0 0 0
Chance for critical hit t= 0,2 0,2 0,2
Critical hit bonus c= 2 2 2
Chance to confirm a critical hit k= 0,95 0,95 0,7740740741
Extra crit damage l= 7 7 7
Formula h(d+s)+thck(d+l) 41,2015 35,0975740741 25,8409382716
The total per round is 102,1400123457.
With Power Attack, the damage increases:
THF With PA + furious focus
Attack bonuses 28 19 14
Chance to hit h= 0,95 0,6685185185 0,4925925926
damage per hit d= 41,5 41,5 41,5
precision/extra damage s= 0 0 0
Chance for critical hit t= 0,2 0,2 0,2
Critical hit bonus c= 2 2 2
Chance to confirm a critical hit k= 0,95 0,8092592593 0,6333333333
Extra crit damage l= 7 7 7
Formula h(d+s)+thck(d+l) 56,9335 38,2390116598 26,4949135802
The total dpr per round jumps to 121,6674252401.
So there are several findings:
- Power attack makes a difference, but it's best used if you have your highest base attack bonus in effect.
- The TWW will have a much better damage output for single attacks as soon as you get twin blades.
- The eidolon has good damage output, is hit pretty hard by DR, though.
- Your equipment is holding back your build.
- As you stated critical feats will improve your dpr further, by about 6 with bleeding critical - if you could take it at that level.
- For pure full-round dpr the standard fighter is better
- Due to your high dex you have a good touch ac and can later buy a ring of evasion - and actually make the saves, unlike the synthesist.
- Due to your high dex, using a bow is quite simple for you. With quick draw you can immediately full-attack, whilst an eidolon has to move.
- Killer and other traits shore up your DPR by about 1.2
- The THF with a falcata wins clearly and uses less feats.
So though the eidolon is not bad, it isn't that incredible. It's primarily a matter of equipment for you. And personally I consider that tentacled monstrosity to be combat oriented, with a 2-level dip to make it survivable (saves!).
So synthesist is nice when you look at just dpr, but it's not overwhelming :-)
EDIT: THF was too low, fixed.
EDIT 2: fixed weapon in thf feat list
I disagree here. When you play APs like Serpent Skull with a synthesist like that, you will most likely die. There is way too much poison, negative environmental effects, save or suck (sometimes die) stuff involved that you won't have a chance to avoid.
Survivability is key for builds, and a min-maxed synthesist like that loses in that department.
At low levels, even with dumped physical stats it still won't be that much worse than a low-level wizard. While it has it's eidolon suit up it'll be a fair bit better protected and when it's down a fair bit worse.
Consider a human 1st level character that is either wizard or quadroped synthesist:
Wizard with Str7/Dex 16/Con14/Int19/Wis10/Cha7 (20pt buy) will have HP8/AC13/Init+3; Fort+2/Ref+3/Will+2.
Synthesist with natural Str7/Dex8/Con9/Int14/Wis14/Cha20 sill have HP 7/AC9/Init-1; Fort-1/Ref-1/Will+4 while non-fused, clearly far worse than the wizard. When fused though, it'll have Str14/Dex14/Con13/Int14/Wis14/Cha20, and thus defensive stats of Speed 40 ft., HP9+6/AC14/Init+2; Fort+1/Ref+2/Will+4; in my opinion a fair bit better than the wizard. It's only marginally behind in fort and ref saves but equally ahead in will saves, and the increased speed and lower initiative kinda evens out. Left is the HP where the synth blows the wizard out of the water, and the AC where the synth is a little bit ahead.
This is before school powers, feats and evolutions which might change things a bit, but I feel pretty confident in saying that the synthesist is at least as durable as a wizard, and probably more. And it's extreme SAD-ness allows it to start with that 20 Cha, which means it has 3 1st level spells and 8 SM1 per day (granted the wizard could also go for Int20, but then some kind of defense will take quite a heavy hit.
Argh just realized that the chance to crit is 30% not 25% on the wakizashis so dpr would be higher... :-)
@sangalor: Might be good to show the effects of dr as well. It really hurts that synths tentacle attacks. Also, did you say you thought acid damage was multiplied?
Well alot of builds are relative weak the first few levels. The magus build presentend couldn't do any damage before it got dervish dance...
That's why you should look at the capstones. When does the build/class get acces to something that stands out. Like pounce, the large evolution, flight...Low level syntesist - mage armor, a decent amount of hp's and he can still be in melee - he's just not awesome yet. A 2hw melee char will mostlikely do more dam.
I can't remember who said it - an this thread has become too long for me to check - but the offensive powers of the syntesist is unbalanced because the rules for natural attacks are unbalanced. So i don't feel the need to dig into it.
But add a vicious, flaming amulet og mighty fist, a acid hand item (deliquid what ever) and a +6 str item to the build. And yiu have +4d6+3 dam pr attack (not bite) is that enough to make you see the potientiel for damage? And well the damage from vicious is some of the only damage the syntesist is gonna get in melee so he can take it.
The unbalanced AC - well no barbarian, fighter or even paladin build have been presentend. So again syntesist win, without trying...
And no this isn't the kind of thing you end up with a concensus. Some haven't played with a syntesist, others have tried with a superoptimized build themselves, or perhaps with a 25 point buy, and perhaps a syntesist player that was more interested in making an angel eidolon, which would look cool on his paladin/syntisist even if it made the build less of a monster in melee. Might be more acceptable in society, and perhaps he spend alot of points being king of skills.
What ever the case gaming experince with the syntesist may be different from group to group so you can't expect people to agree on something so heartfelt..
I think the variability of experience with such a customizable class is the only reason I have such opposition at all. So much that it can't be the archetype, it must be the problem of something else.
Describing my game, it's been accused of everything being wrong but the archetype. Whatever went wrong, it can't be the precious synthesist that was the issue.
Since allowing leadership and undead lords seems also on the level of extra permissive to some of you guys, wouldn't way more of my games have a similar issue to what I experienced with the synthesist? Wouldn't there be more examples of things it turns out I have to ban because of super-optimizing players?
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yeah your age synthesist (was the second category so suffereing -3 str/dex/con) is severly hampered when he's got to sleep. Also environmental things (which can be covered by endure elements)
He isn't allowed to qualify for any feats requiring stats he doesn't possess while resting (because he game wise isn't normally allowed to stay in skin for 24+hrs.
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Swivl, the only area that has been identified as causing "OPness" has been when combining manufactured attacks with the natural attacks (and guess what, this is a problem with EVERY single class)
Everytime I see the "ultimate defense" synthesist, that's literally all it does, it buffs and is nearly impossible to kill... in which case, you simply ignore the dumb thing.
No one here has been able to make the case of "unkillable" and "awesome offense" for any lvl.
The only time I've seen it effectively done has been at 20, and anti-magic is super common at that point along with other spells with no saving throws.
lantzkev, you know a lot about them. What do you think the difference between the base summoner and the synthesist was that caused all the complaints and eventually banning in PFS?
Yeah... camp ambushes generally lead to the synthesist casting dimension door. As a spell or SLA, as he had both. And yes, I did do things that required him to concentrate. Lucky rolls, I guess. Still, one of the few ways to guarantee damage and probably kill the rest of the party.
He didn't dump physical stats as he needed a dex score for the feats he had, the grappling stuff and combat reflexes, so it was at least 13, and 14 by the end of the game.
All his age category stuff only made his defenses unreasonably strong while he was pummeling things to dust.
He toned it down at the end of the game doing bunches of sub-optimal things just so the gunslinger can use some more bullets.
The fact of the matter is that the vanilla Summoner is better than the Synthesist. He's squishier, yeah, but he's still effectively a full caster with a pet that is a damn good fighter.
Giving up all that action economy is a huge blow.
We've yet to find this out for ourselves, as we're hesitant after the synthesist scenario. I feel like we all want to try a summoner of some kind or another, but none of us are planning one yet.
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yeah your age synthesist (was the second category so suffereing -3 str/dex/con) is severly hampered when he's got to sleep. Also environmental things (which can be covered by endure elements)
He isn't allowed to qualify for any feats requiring stats he doesn't possess while resting (because he game wise isn't normally allowed to stay in skin for 24+hrs.
This is also false and was covered by SKR within a certain very large synthesist thread.
Anyone can remain awake for 24 hours, there are penalties in the rules for doing so. This allows the synthesist to qualify for a feat. Now, you can't use feats during the time periods you don't qualify for them, but as soon as your stats go back up, the feat is there waiting for you.
yeah your age synthesist (was the second category so suffereing -3 str/dex/con) is severly hampered when he's got to sleep. Also environmental things (which can be covered by endure elements)
He isn't allowed to qualify for any feats requiring stats he doesn't possess while resting (because he game wise isn't normally allowed to stay in skin for 24+hrs.
This is also false and was covered by SKR within a certain very large synthesist thread.
Anyone can remain awake for 24 hours, there are penalties in the rules for doing so. This allows the synthesist to qualify for a feat. Now, you can't use feats during the time periods you don't qualify for them, but as soon as your stats go back up, the feat is there waiting for you.
There were also long periods of the party, but especially the synthesist being awake, but this wasn't why. It was actually because tragic things were happening while he slept, so he didn't sleep.
Yeah, come to think of it, the game was pretty brutal. In some ways.
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Artanthos, SKR did infact say that, but I feel it isn't really in the spirit of things.
A character can't use a feat if he loses a prerequisite, but he does not lose the feat itself. If, at a later time, he regains the lost prerequisite, he immediately regains full use of the feat that prerequisite enables.
This is one of those times that I as a GM would say that the character does not have the str, his "eidolon skin" has the str, but HE does not. Regardless of what SKR said in that thread, this aside it is allowed by the rules as clarified in a thread (but not in a FAQ or update) but I wouldn't allow it at my table.
All characters I assume to sleep and skipping "one night" of sleep to "qualify" for a feat is just ridiculous to me. This rule was imo meant for things like items that are continually on to allow you to qualify for things. But I digress, this is a argument for a different thread.
At any rate if that's how the eidlon summoner wants to spend 1/10th of his feats, I guess... Specially since they are all secondary attacks with the weapon wielding ones (the natural attacks anyhow) it's a straight -1 to hit for +1 dmg. (all secondary attacks are 1/2str default I believe and same for power attack...)
At any rate, it's not worth quibbing over these points, as it stands no one has presented a synthesist build that is "zomg powerful" they've presented ones that were "zomg powerful, but not really objectively, and I've also misused several rules getting it here"
Look at scenarious where you have extreme weather, look at how the eidolon regenerates its hps... (it doesn't really without a bit of casting) The summoner has to rest to get those spells back, and I've seen 2nd level casters DIE in the mountains in a PFS scenario
again the high levels are where they get powerful, but at that point so is everyone else and they aren't as vulnerable to the things at high levels like the synthesist summoner is. The things that hurt for other casters become downright lethal for a synthesist that stat dumps (which yours has done to an extreme with age modifiers)
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yeah your age synthesist (was the second category so suffereing -3 str/dex/con) is severly hampered when he's got to sleep. Also environmental things (which can be covered by endure elements)
He isn't allowed to qualify for any feats requiring stats he doesn't possess while resting (because he game wise isn't normally allowed to stay in skin for 24+hrs.
This is also false and was covered by SKR within a certain very large synthesist thread.
Anyone can remain awake for 24 hours, there are penalties in the rules for doing so. This allows the synthesist to qualify for a feat. Now, you can't use feats during the time periods you don't qualify for them, but as soon as your stats go back up, the feat is there waiting for you.
There were also long periods of the party, but especially the synthesist being awake, but this wasn't why. It was actually because tragic things were happening while he slept, so he didn't sleep.
Yeah, come to think of it, the game was pretty brutal. In some ways.
So great, now he's suffering from fatigue! -2 to everything!
Do my party band other stuff? Yes.
This isn't meant to start a debat, it's just know where i come from:
1 - leadership, it s been broken since 3.5
2 - pit spells, had a player focus on them, master added pit spells to all npc spellcasters, everyone felt the game was better without them
3 - terrible remorse - before it was nerfed, and nerfed again.
As for the paladin2/syntesist10 calculations - well we did make the max number of natural attack = max number of attacks, not that it did much good.
I'm not sure the loss of 1/2 str and pa on all the natural attacks are worth it.
He isn't allowed to qualify for any feats requiring stats he doesn't possess while resting (because he game wise isn't normally allowed to stay in skin for 24+hrs.
Is this a FAQ or something? Because it's nowhere in the core rules AFAIK. I think it's fair to make that ruling, but I don't think it's in the RAW. I've never seen the 24 hours requirement at all, the closest thing I can think of is that stat booster item bonuses become permanent after 24 hours.
Also, there's no limitation on the amount of time the eidolon can be out. With a wand of lesser restoration, the summoner can stay awake for however long it wishes (though it won't replenish spells).
So great, now he's suffering from fatigue! -2 to everything!
A 750 GP wand solves that for a month and a half. Or if you're houseruled out the dumped prices on certain spells (as I have), a 3000 gp wand.
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Ilja, it's been stated in message board comments by SKR and maybe others that if you have the bonus for more than 24hrs you can now qualify for any feat (and if you lose the bonus, you can't use that feat until you meet it's requirements again)
I haven't seen it in the FAQ for the core rulebook nor in the errata, but it seems accepted. I disagree personally though.
Regardless of what the solution is to the problem, I was just pointing out that fatigue is present now.
Oh, okay.
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At any rate, it's not worth quibbing over these points, as it stands no one has presented a synthesist build that is "zomg powerful" they've presented ones that were "zomg powerful, but not really objectively, and I've also misused several rules getting it here"
I have always held that the synthesist, while powerful, is no more broken than what can be achieved with any number of other optimized builds.
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Even if the summoner isn't overpowered, it isn't a class that players can handle. Synthesists usually have a lot of mistakes in their build. I have the experience that "normal" summoners bog down the game a lot looking up what the monsters that they just summoned do exactly.
And if you still think the summoner is somehow broken, I suggest you read the current post of the 13th lvl pistolero gunslinger who is doing over 300 damage a round. Almost any class can, with considerable thought and planning, be optomized to the point of being broken. (i.e. overshadowing other party members, which shouldnt be an issue to begin with)
Your example is a 13th level character. And the supposed proof of being overpowered is that he can do a fair bit of damage. At level 13. Really, a bad example. The summoner is already overpowered at lvl 1, and a 13th lvl summoner will vastly overpower the pistolero.
And why shouldn't overshadowing the party be an issue, if it's by a fair bit ? Remember that Pathfinder is a social game.
Ilja, it's been stated in message board comments by SKR and maybe others that if you have the bonus for more than 24hrs you can now qualify for any feat (and if you lose the bonus, you can't use that feat until you meet it's requirements again)
I haven't seen it in the FAQ for the core rulebook nor in the errata, but it seems accepted. I disagree personally though.
Regardless of what the solution is to the problem, I was just pointing out that fatigue is present now.
We did the fatigue thing. It wasn't an insurmountable problem, much like size wasn't either.
Anyway, my game is over, has been over, and we as a group agree that the synthesist itself is an issue, and barring any rewrites/erratas, it will remain alone in the banned pile (unless something else like it manages to show itself in Paizo material).
Even if the summoner isn't overpowered, it isn't a class that players can handle. Synthesists usually have a lot of mistakes in their build. I have the experience that "normal" summoners bog down the game a lot looking up what the monsters that they just summoned do exactly.
I can't vouch for the first part of this, but I can easily believe it.
Our table, since our time is usually limited, has pressure for quick turns. A small hourglass timer will help things move along, we found out.
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Even if the summoner isn't overpowered, it isn't a class that players can handle. Synthesists usually have a lot of mistakes in their build. I have the experience that "normal" summoners bog down the game a lot looking up what the monsters that they just summoned do exactly.
[snip]
Your example is a 13th level character. And the supposed proof of being overpowered is that he can do a fair bit of damage. At level 13. Really, a bad example. The summoner is already overpowered at lvl 1, and a 13th lvl summoner will vastly overpower the pistolero.
Players are completely capable of making and playing a Synthesist properly, it just involves a lot of reading. If you aren't interested in properly crafting your character both mechanically and in regards to its personality/backstory/etc, why would you be playing an RPG to begin with? Any shmuck can throw together a character without reading the rules, but why should others be penalized for the fact that someone (admittedly a few someones) has done it improperly?
And the supposed proof of the Synthesist being overpowered is... he has a lot of HP? How, praytell, is he overpowered at level 1? "Because I say so" is not a valid argument.
And why shouldn't overshadowing the party be an issue, if it's by a fair bit ? Remember that Pathfinder is a social game.
I don't believe disagreeing with that. I think it was just poorly worded.
Well, I would say the summoner and synthesist both are much harder to learn than almost any other class in the game, since they have a huge load of exceptions to how things usually work. I mean, I don't get rules wrong or have to double-check after reading the physical book that often (though it no doubt happens) but when trying to build a synthesist I had to google several issues that where unclear (including save progression, BAB progression which is ruled differently from how the monk flurry BAB was ruled, Augment Summoning which works differently from how most feats interact with SLA's, etc).
For most classes it's enough to read the class description and maybe coupled with parts of the magic section. Only a few minor things are found in online errata. For the summoner it's all over the place.
I would say summoner (not synthesist) is plenty strong at first level, maybe the strongest class at 1st level together with the druid if using similar amounts of optimization (and of course depending on the adventure in question as well as party makeup). Most other classes have really limited resources at 1st level (including most casters, barbarians etc), have circumstantially strong powers (rangers, clerics), have severe issues with versatility (fighters) or are just quite weak in combat (rogues, monks).
Both summoners and druids are versatile, have great action economy, can burst out powerful spells and have some longetivity compared to wizards due to companions and combat skill.
I don't think any class is broken at 1st level, can't really see any character steamroll through stuff similarly optimized characters have difficulty with, but that may be because all first level characters have quite limited power
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Nope, Barbarian = most powerful at lvl 1 =P
I'm honestly not sure how the people that complain about synthesists screw it up so badly on these boards. I've rarely found anyone at my table that can't do simple addition and subtraction and can't read what they're doing.
Once the stats are written down, a eidolon (synthesist or no) requires way less book looking up than a regular spell caster.
EVERYTHING and eidolon has available is in the description and very clear. It's the people who select large and then give bonus str for only 2pts rather than 4pt, or select armor bonus more frequently than the ability allow for that "break" the eidolons.
As far as your ban pile, if this made it in but nothing else, you're playing with a odd group and are just knee jerking it.
Either that or you let the "I can't kill it" comment be the only thing you focused on. You still haven't really clarified what guidelines you let your players use to build and what they get beyond standard. Because standard wise, there's just no way this wrecks like you have claimed.
We really really want to know how this eidolon was actually built and why the other characters weren't as strong or more so in their own way.
I'm not saying barbarian is weak at level 1, but it'll only have like 7 rounds or so of rage, which depending on game style means it'll be able to rage one to three battles per day. And when it doesn't rage, it's basically like a fighter with worse armor and less feats (slightly faster movement though, that's quite decent). Barbarian might be the best burster at 1st level (together with some specific sorcerers I would say) but it doesn't have much longetivity, especially not in a game where fights lasts more than three rounds.
I gave several examples of rules exceptions for the summoner - as said, feats that change spells usually do not work with SLA's - but augment summoning works with the summon monster SLA's.
With monk, the line "the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level" meant it stacks with non-monk BAB. In the synthesist, the line "The synthesist uses the eidolon’s base attack bonus" meant it doesn't stack with other BAB. While this makes sense when doing some research and analyzing, for many new or not as rules-savvy players, or those who doesn't have english as a main language (me for example) the difference in wording may not be apparent as to working differently. I'm not saying the rule is ambiguous - I'm saying it's hard to understand it if you're not that good with the rules or there's some other barrier like language. It's understandable since it is in the APG, but it's still quite badly worded.
The same thing can be said with base saves and other things.
Personally I think the summoner as a class should work more like other classes do (and the eidolon work more like other outsiders do without a bazillion exceptions) and that the synthesist should have given up on describing the fused creature as an eidolon at all, simply describing it as fusing the essence of an otherworldly power or similar yadda yadda, so people aren't sure of what eidolon powers are kept (since there is no eidolon, just listed benefits).
That's too late now though - the class has already been published and won't change.
Also, I must add that regardless of what you THINK about the class being easy to play, that doesn't change the fact that a LOT of errors are done, as shown on the boards - it seems quite a bit more than usual for classes. This is actual evidence that the class IS harder to play legit, or that wouldn't have happened.
And I must add that while we haven't seen any eidolon builds that outclasses fighters at fighting, they've been quite even - but that's before including the fact that the synthesist also has access to the best 2/3 casting in the game.
If a class does 70% of the fighting of a full fighter and 70% of the casting of a full caster it will not be a balance issue. But if it does 90% of the fighting of a full fighter and 80% of the casting of a full caster that can very well be a balance issue.
I'm not saying you can't make broken builds of most classes - you can. I'm just saying that looking at a 2/3 caster doing 90% of the damage of a quite optimized fighter before spellbuffs isn't in any way evidence of them being a well-balanced class.
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at first level the barbarian easily has 17ac, and easily has 14hp.
A summoner even with the eidolon skin has 16-17ac and 14hp.
both have +1 BAB, but the Barbarian has higher accuracy and damage. Most can reliably hit and kill everything at lvl 1, not so for most other classes.
Ilja, they clarified that other BAB stack with the synthesist BAB.
I've seen alot of errors made with monks, warriors, rogues, gunslingers etc. I don't think the class is riddled with problems, I just think the players are riddled with poor reasoning or lack of attention to what they are doing.
I've seen casters "cast more than they had prepared" but I don't think they were cheating or that there's something inherently hard to understand about you have x spells per day...
Seriously the Eidolons are very easy to figure out.
you have a chassis "Biped, quadruped, serpenting, aquatic" and then you have X points.
Look at list of abilities, if you meet the pre-reqs you can spend up to X points adding abilities to the chasses.
This is no different than when someone goes to buy a flaming great axe.
they look at the gear table, they see how much gold it costs, the buy a great axe "chassis" then they look over and buy a +1 "ability" then they add another +1 ability (because they have enough for two points worth) and then they add it all together.
they then write it down and voila they are done.
It's the exact same with a summoner.
Uhm, a synthesist is pretty weak at 1st level (or at least not very strong). I was talking about the regular summoner being strong at 1st level (and clearly noting so in the post). And while the barb might have AC17 and 14 HP, the fighter can be rocking AC 18-20 and 16 HP without too much issue with the same damage output compared to non-raging barb and having as many free feats.
Oh so now it does stack? But didn't they say in this thread that it didn't stack with paladin BAB? And it's very unclear in the RAW now... Do you see what I mean?
I've seen plenty of errors of characters of most classes, that's not the point. The point is that for every thread we get about an overpowered rogue that turned out to be illegal, we get ten threads about summoners in the same situation. That itself is proof that it's hard to build it legit, unless you believe summoner players are more prone to intentional cheating than others (which seems like an unfounded theory).
Saying "it's not that hard because I have no issues with it so you shouldn't either" in no way refutes the simple fact that people do find it hard, and apparently quite a lot of people find it hard.
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there is little that a fighter can do at first level to have that high an ac and hp, you're saying a lvl 1 fighter can rock a con of 22?
early someone posted they didnt' stack because they read the ability (and were right in saying so!) but then SKR said other classes BAB stacked with the eidolon (which makes you able to multi-class easier as a synthesist, I think it's a mistake, but it's not too bad since the really cool eidolon evolutions are level dependent)
i think the reason you see soo many about the summoner is that it's a character that's outside of most peoples comfort zone. Up until now there was no way a caster could really be a "tank" and now they can, of course the problem here comes when folks try and combine "blaster" with "tank" because they've misread or are misapplying things or they have a GM who isn't adept at handling natural attacks mixed with manufactured attacks. (this mixing is honestly the worst offender for every class for "zomg that guy is op")
Alot of people find Algebra hard, Just because alot of people say it's hard doesn't make it so. They just aren't putting the effort into learning it. (And really this is addition and subtraction, you do not have to divide or multiply to handle the math in this game)
If your players can't handle the simple addition and subtraction of this game not only can they not handle summoners, they can't handle any class.
No, I'm saying it can spend it's first bonus feat on Toughness and have a 16 con. AC is 10+1 dex+7banded (+2 shield when needed).
Yeah so even now we get errata/clarifications/dev rulings on the synth. Apparently it isn't as easy as just reading the entry?
Most people are used to casters being tanks. We've seen tank bards, tank druids, tank clerics etc for quite a while now, even if we ignore paladins and rangers. And among the other APG classes, inquisitor is also a decent tank. Not to talk about all multiclassers.
It hasn't got much to do with comfort zone. Alchemists are also a pretty new concept, as are spontaneous divine casters such as the oracle. It's got everything to do with execution.
1. It's extremely modular. Many different variables = many places where it can go wrong.
2. It's got many exceptions to standard rules written into it than most other classes.
3. It's got a few exceptions to standard rules that are NOT written into it but rather found in online rulings (Augment summoning)
4. It's generally quite badly written, not spelling out how certain rules work and omitting things that should've been included (such as a note on what not to copy when applying the synth suit, similar to how they have for templates).
That it is also (at least) quite a strong class means those in combinations can give the impression that it's overpowered, whether it is or not.
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1) highly customized is never an excuse to say something needs fixing.
2) it has no exceptions that I can think of specially compared to other classes.
3) it has no exception to standard rules that I know (isn't this also point 2?)
4) how is it badly written? It's written identically compared to other classes. The only badly written part is how synthesist BAB uses the eidolons BAB rather than it's own and THEN you can add other classes BAB ontop of that.
The synthesist fused form could use more clarity, but I think it's far from "badly" written.
the combinations you've listed aren't what cause the complaints of over powered.
Nearly every thread has come in with "omg it does so much damage" or "omg I can't kill it" and a few that claim both which are quickly dismissed as bogus or bad GMing, or not following rules.
1) No. I'm not saying it's broken or anything due to this. I say it's one of the reasons many people get stuff wrong.
2) Well, classes are generally built on exceptions to some degree, but the eidolon and summoner goes several steps further. Just look at the eidolon class feature: They count as summoned creatures, except they aren't sent back at 0. And except they can ignore protection from evil and magic circle against evil. And except they can't be dispelled. Eidolons do not heal naturally, contrary to all other outsiders in the game. They constantly refer to the Eidolon being "slain" and "dying" yet summoned creatures do not usually die.
3) The difference between 2 and 3 is that 2 is the load of exceptions written into the class, while 3 is the exceptions that are NOT written into the class but clarified online. Generally feats that alter spells do not affect SLA's, but for some reason Augment Summoning was declared an exception and does affect the summoners SM SLA.
4)
- Life link cannot by the RAW be used outside of your turn. This was errata'd to a non-action but still does not appear in the book. That's a very large thing.
- The eidolon ability line "the eidolon hit points are unchanged from the last time it was summoned" makes no sense and was errata'd but it still hasn't appeared in the book or PRD.
- Improved Natural Armor that says once per five levels but means once plus once more per five levels and has been erratad but still doesn't show up in the book or prd.
- Augment summoning as explained above.
- Repeated reference to the eidolon as being "dead" (so can you resurrect it? can the summoner raise it, should it gain access to the spell?)
- Does the summoner take a full round to cast metamagic'd spells? The rules don't state, so one can assume not, but on the other hand all the core spontaneous casters do and that's where the rule is generally listed.
This are just the big things for the vanilla summoner, for the synthesist add these FAQs. Note that the sorcerer (which is the one with highest otherwise in the book) has 4 FAQs, and the synthesist has 10. That itself is telling.
There's several other smaller issues, but they're more cornercases and thus things one can expect to be fuzzy at times. But there are many gray areas within the summoner.
And it's easy to say "well nearly all complaints are dismissed so they're invalid" when you're the one constantly dismissing them without any real solid evidence. I mean, take a deep breath. It feels as if you're really antagonistic on this one. You keep saying "everything's fine!" when a lot of people are saying "I'm having issues with it." and then you just repeat "everything's fine!". If a lot of people are having issues with something in a game, that is bad game design. I'm trying to look at this in a sober way, and I'm not sprouting "the summoner is teh broken! ban it!", but regardless of what one says all your answer is is ever a "everything's fine!" argued from the point of "I don't have problems so neither should you" which is a really weak argument.
Again, the fact that lots of people are having trouble building summoners and the fact that there's a sh*tload of summoner FAQ, formal and informal, is proof that there are issues with the class. The fact that there is issues with the class do not need further proof than that. What is instead relevant is looking at _what_ the issues are and if they can be solved by houseruling (which I generally don't think they can since I think it's less a balance issue as a description issue).
EDIT: I cannot find any other archetype that has more than two FAQs, but the synthesist has 10. That is being badly written.
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Nope, Barbarian = most powerful at lvl 1 =P
I'm honestly not sure how the people that complain about synthesists screw it up so badly on these boards. I've rarely found anyone at my table that can't do simple addition and subtraction and can't read what they're doing.
Once the stats are written down, a eidolon (synthesist or no) requires way less book looking up than a regular spell caster.
EVERYTHING and eidolon has available is in the description and very clear. It's the people who select large and then give bonus str for only 2pts rather than 4pt, or select armor bonus more frequently than the ability allow for that "break" the eidolons.
As far as your ban pile, if this made it in but nothing else, you're playing with a odd group and are just knee jerking it.
Either that or you let the "I can't kill it" comment be the only thing you focused on. You still haven't really clarified what guidelines you let your players use to build and what they get beyond standard. Because standard wise, there's just no way this wrecks like you have claimed.
We really really want to know how this eidolon was actually built and why the other characters weren't as strong or more so in their own way.
The reason I've not mentioned any extras for characters as far as guidelines or general rules it's because there aren't any. For this game, I literally said, "20 (or 25, I can't remember) point buy, no necromancers, and it'd work better with the whole horror theme in mind." So my friend decided on a Jekyll/Hyde synthesist sort of thing, and that was that.
Odd or not, calling it a knee jerk is disingenuous. This was from 1-13, and for almost the entire thing we were trying to figure out why it was he was so much stronger than we intended him to be. Dismissing my group as a whole as being off or not playing right or simply exaggerating is not constructive. Tell me my experience is illegitimate, and I can easily tell you the same, and we'd get nowhere doing it.
I don't have the sheet handy, sorry about that, but with such freedom as some would call it, just figure some of the best options possible for what I told you already and the build is done.
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I think you're massively underestimating the usefulness of defenses here - this seems to be a boards thing more than anything else, a focus on damage per round to the exclusion of all else.
Quite the opposite in my case. I almost always place a strong emphasis on defense when I build a character.
When PFS banned synthesist, I rebuilt my character as a bladebound kensai, both my AC and DPR went up.
The sword & board / twf fighter build I have been playing around with has an AC that matches or exceeds the sythesist at all levels of progression.
A well built paladin is going to have both higher AC and better saves than the synthesist - plus several times the synthesists hp available as swift healing. Against an evil opponent, the paladin will also have higher damage
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Swivl, without seeing your build, it's impossible to know what's going on. It's a great unknown so far that you have just said "trust me" on.
When I go from the best options available, I don't come up with anything you've described. Banning it without banning many other options is a knee jerk reaction, or a reaction you'll be having again in the near future.
Swivl, without seeing your build, it's impossible to know what's going on. It's a great unknown so far that you have just said "trust me" on.
When I go from the best options available, I don't come up with anything you've described. Banning it without banning many other options is a knee jerk reaction, or a reaction you'll be having again in the near future.
No.
Banning something without thought is a knee-jerk reaction. This was 6 months of gaming.
I've already told you, we've been gaming for more than 10 years, and playing PF since the beta. We don't ban anything without thought or consideration. We are, it seems, pretty open about that.
We've allowed lots of other things other GMs seem squeemish about, and not had to ban those options at all.
I don't know what to tell you, maybe it just needs to be seen in action to get the whole picture.
In a way, I am asking you to just trust me, but only on the fact that I've had such a problem, not that you need to do the same as me and ban it at your games too.
That's likely going to open a serious can of worms on the side, if what I see on the thread already is to be believed. It would go far beyond the scope of this thread.
So what I'll do instead, is find the sheets, post them as a post-mortem for Carrion Crown, and then go from there. This might be a while; I can't seem to find any of the character sheets from the game.
It will be there that all the speculation and finger-wagging can go on.