The situations where the Synthesist without his eidolon are:
1) In public, where he doesn't want to be seen as a horrific monster
2) Sleeping
3) When he needs to use Summon MonsterOther than these three, he can pretty much be in his eidolon shell all the time. Number 2 is really the big one, as it means he can be coup de grace'd in his sleep rather easily (weak Fort save combined with a -2 to Fort saves from a 6 Constitution) but the others can be worked around.
I agree that the Synthesist really should work more like the Druid's Wildshape, but I don't write the rules, I can only play with them as written.
My Synthesist doesn't have terribly dumped stats (she has an 11 Str and 10 Dex, but more Constitution than in her eidolon form (14 vs. 13), and I'm going out of my way to pick her evolutions for flavor, not because lol must charge pounce murder everything while being unkillable, and I think that if people didn't go digging for specific ways to bend the archetype to their will, the Synthesist would be far less maligned.
Other simple things are enervation, ray of exhaustion, a well-built martial character...
Poison causing strength damage would also be quite lethal. I wonder how such a character would fare in Serpent Skull... ;-)
I was kind of surprised when I read the class myself. I wondered why they didn't go the same route as the polymorph spells. If your synthesist only gave minor size bonuses to stats at level one, I don't think people would be making such a huge deal out of the class.
I find it interesting that at least two of the builds that are supposed to show that synthesists are OP are multiclassed, one with paladin and one with monk. To me that does not say much about the synthesist archetype but rather about potentially efficient combinations :-)
The discussion there reminds me of barbarian/oracle or barbarian/martial artist combinations which can rage cycle at low levels: some don't like it and ban it, others are fine with it...Regarding the grappler: I don't see how that kind of tactic works at higher levels. Too many opponents get bonuses that are too high to guarantee success, the there are flying/ranged enemies, those utilizing freedom of movement or similar effects... What level are we talking about here?
The age thing is kind of cheesy, though. Personally I have played old (martial) characters a few times, but that was primarily for RP reasons and we froze those bonuses and penalties at the first step. "optimizing" like that monk/synthesist player apparently has done would have been difficult with my GMs... ;-)
We did the Carrion Crown AP, but we skipped a bit at the end of the last book so we went to level 13. There indeed were flying enemies. He had wings (or at the least a fly speed, I forget which). A few things had freedom of movement, which did dramatically drop his damage output, but by then the rest of the party was good enough they could make up the difference, so it didn't show up as a big weakness. Plus, he still could slam, buff, or cast any other spells while being really really hard to hit in the first place.
I can visualize the types of monsters that are made to be difficult to grapple or otherwise touch. I can't see too many of them making up the majority of any AP. Carrion Crown had a few of them; he dealt with it anyway. It just wasn't that big of a deal.
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And STILL no details I see.
So, you're going to ignore the fact that the variant WIZARD class is a better melee combatant than a Fighter and respond with personal insults as a way of supporting your decision to ignore this reality?You asked for them. Both characters are Level 12. Attributes and Magic Items not relating to the question of damage output are ignored.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...
Just for the record, it's highly likely that a Fighter using a Greatsword or Falchion, with feats and stats to match, would easily outdo your friend's damage.
Additionally, he doesn't have Smite Evil, as the Sacred Shield archetype trades that ability out.
It sounds an awful lot like you're calling sour grapes because he's playing an optimized class and you're not.
You also happened to leave out a ton of relevant information that would help us figure out exactly what's going on. In Swivl's example, it was pretty obvious that his friend had been using things like age categories to create a stronger character than would normally be available, but it looks like your buddy hasn't really done anything out there. Maybe it does more damage than you, but he can't fly, he has no option for easily dealing with ranged targets, and if he has to move, most of those attacks aren't getting used.
You, as a Dex-based Fighter, can bust out a Longbow and be damn effective with it, where even if he did the same, he'd not be anywhere near as adept with it.
And STILL no details I see.
So, you're going to ignore the fact that the variant WIZARD class is a better melee combatant than a Fighter and respond with personal insults as a way of supporting your decision to ignore this reality?You asked for them. Both characters are Level 12. Attributes and Magic Items not relating to the question of damage output are ignored.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...
Can't go into details, reading on my phone...
Something that caught my attention is that your twf seems to not have power attack. Did I overlook it?
If you don't have it, that's a very big loss in damage you have there. I consider PA to be mandatory for a martial character, adding it will significantly improve it. :-)
I find it interesting that at least two of the builds that are supposed to show that synthesists are OP are multiclassed, one with paladin and one with monk. To me that does not say much about the synthesist archetype but rather about potentially efficient combinations :-)
The discussion there reminds me of barbarian/oracle or barbarian/martial artist combinations which can rage cycle at low levels: some don't like it and ban it, others are fine with it...Regarding the grappler: I don't see how that kind of tactic works at higher levels. Too many opponents get bonuses that are too high to guarantee success, the there are flying/ranged enemies, those utilizing freedom of movement or similar effects... What level are we talking about here?
The age thing is kind of cheesy, though. Personally I have played old (martial) characters a few times, but that was primarily for RP reasons and we froze those bonuses and penalties at the first step. "optimizing" like that monk/synthesist player apparently has done would have been difficult with my GMs... ;-)
We did the Carrion Crown AP, but we skipped a bit at the end of the last book so we went to level 13. There indeed were flying enemies. He had wings (or at the least a fly speed, I forget which). A few things had freedom of movement, which did dramatically drop his damage output, but by then the rest of the party was good enough they could make up the difference, so it didn't show up as a big weakness. Plus, he still could slam, buff, or cast any other spells while being really really hard to hit in the first place.
I can visualize the types of monsters that are made to be difficult to grapple or otherwise touch. I can't see too many of them making up the majority of any AP. Carrion Crown had a few of them; he dealt with it anyway. It just wasn't that big of a deal.
Thanks :-)
I don't know CC, sounds like it got suitable enemies for a grappler. Other APs don't always.
What you listed are certainly things you can do, synthesist is not a bad class archetype. I am still convinced that other classes like bards, fighter, ranger etc. can outdo or counter it. Also low physical base stats are terrible to have in some APs such as serpent skull where you won't be able to wear synthesist all the time - plus you have enemies who can counter you quite well :-)
Also, again, multiclassing does not make it a valid synthesist build for this comparison anymore. Dipping it monk is one of the best things you can do to gain features your class does not have, e.g. saves, damage output, bonus feats etc. :-)
Out of curiosity: what point-buy did you use?
And STILL no details I see.
So, you're going to ignore the fact that the variant WIZARD class is a better melee combatant than a Fighter and respond with personal insults as a way of supporting your decision to ignore this reality?You asked for them. Both characters are Level 12. Attributes and Magic Items not relating to the question of damage output are ignored.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...
Again, can't go into details here but your math assumption seems skewed. If I understand your writing correctly you assume hits on the high numbers on the dice regardless of the AC at that level and the attack bonus of your characters.
A standard to calculate success rate on these boards is to assume you need to hit an AC of your level+15. The higher attack bonus on our tww would matter here.
Also effectively +2 weapons are way too low for your level, you should have a lot better equipment there following the standard guidelines.
Personally I think your builld is not very effective. In itself that is no problem, but it does not really help to show that another build was too strong :-)
Also I would really like to see a pure synthesist build for the purpose of this discussion. What you presented is not auch one, and as was pointed out it should not have smite evil. The paladin dip makes it much more survivable and gives it proficiencies it would usually not have. So what you are showing is that an optimized multiclass charisma-based character with a 2-level dip into paladin is effective - something very well known :-)
Something that caught my attention is that your twf seems to not have power attack. Did I overlook it?
If you don't have it, that's a very big loss in damage you have there. I consider PA to be mandatory for a martial character, adding it will significantly improve it. :-)
No, I don't have it. I have (at most) one feat to spare (which I noted in the build section) and if I used the Fighter ability to swap the lower-level feat out, the choice would be between Power Attack (+4 per hit damage at -4 per attack) or Penetrating Strike (ignore 5 points of DR with every strike). Note that I do NOT have the spare feat to take Furious Focus.
Heck, I'm not sure if the character has a 13 Strength. PURE dex-based Fighter . . ..
** spoiler omitted **
122.55 is roughly 6 points better per round (or an average of 1 point per swing), but it is still 13 or 3 less than the synthesist build (depending on the "right" math for the Bite damage).
Well, as I said, pure dex based without at least 13 str and PA is ineffective IMO.
Note that I did not bring up furious focus.
I am referring ro your tww where pa gives you +8 on your main hand and +4 on your off-hand . Your crits will increase that further :-)
And your higher to-hit will easily deal with PA penalty, particularly with better weapons as mentioned in my other post.
Btw, I do consider that synthesist's main focus to he melee combat - the dips and evolution choices clearly point to that.
Well, the character has 1 feat not identified, and the only 2 benefits being used in the example for Paladin are the martial weapon proficiency (again, 1 feat not identified could cover that) and the 2 levels of Full BAB advancement.
A pure Summoner would lose 1 point Attack Bonus over that build.
Might bring the average down to the same rang,e but it isn't going to be a major change.
The Synthesist would still be roughly as melee capable as the pure melee fighter.
As for the level +15 assumption, that's a pretty silly sticking point.
The THW has smaller attack bonuses on his harder hits than the TWW does. Yes, he's got an advantage on the first swing, but on the first swing ONLY.
I think you are over-thinking the difference. Feel free to do the math if it will make you feel better.
I disagree on the paladin, the saves are very important there, too.
I don't know why you keep bringing up thf, i only spoke of the tww/twf.
Your unwillingness to state an AC to hit against is what I consider silly since it favors the synthesist. Losing bab when not dipping makes it even harder for him.
And your fighter is ineffectively built with bad feat choices and stats and equipment. I know quite well how to build fighters, so you can improve that a lot :-)
I find it interesting that at least two of the builds that are supposed to show that synthesists are OP are multiclassed, one with paladin and one with monk. To me that does not say much about the synthesist archetype but rather about potentially efficient combinations :-)
The discussion there reminds me of barbarian/oracle or barbarian/martial artist combinations which can rage cycle at low levels: some don't like it and ban it, others are fine with it...Regarding the grappler: I don't see how that kind of tactic works at higher levels. Too many opponents get bonuses that are too high to guarantee success, the there are flying/ranged enemies, those utilizing freedom of movement or similar effects... What level are we talking about here?
The age thing is kind of cheesy, though. Personally I have played old (martial) characters a few times, but that was primarily for RP reasons and we froze those bonuses and penalties at the first step. "optimizing" like that monk/synthesist player apparently has done would have been difficult with my GMs... ;-)
We did the Carrion Crown AP, but we skipped a bit at the end of the last book so we went to level 13. There indeed were flying enemies. He had wings (or at the least a fly speed, I forget which). A few things had freedom of movement, which did dramatically drop his damage output, but by then the rest of the party was good enough they could make up the difference, so it didn't show up as a big weakness. Plus, he still could slam, buff, or cast any other spells while being really really hard to hit in the first place.
I can visualize the types of monsters that are made to be difficult to grapple or otherwise touch. I can't see too many of them making up the majority of any AP. Carrion Crown had a few of them; he dealt with it anyway. It just wasn't that big of a deal.
Thanks :-)
I don't know CC, sounds like it got suitable enemies for a grappler. Other APs don't always.
What you listed are...
I generally take it as the given assumption that multiclassing is always possible. Class design was certainly affected in this regard when moving to PF versus 3.5, I have no doubts about this. It is a big part of 3.x design, and is in no way in spirit of play that it shouldn't be there.
In other words, should my group ban synthesists, or ban multiclassing with synthesists? Does the latter actually solve what went wrong in CC? I'm not yet convinced that it does.
@swivl:
Neither should be banned :-)
This thread started with the claim that synthesists are OP by default. I have seen no evidence of this so far. I could make builds with other classes that are stronger and have less weaknesses. They would then cause problems, too, right?
If your player made an effective build, that is fine. If the others are too ineffective, you can either improve them, use the weaknesses of the synthesist, or ask the player to redesign.
And maybe it isn't even the builds, but the tactics and roles in the group?
And STILL no details I see.
So, you're going to ignore the fact that the variant WIZARD class is a better melee combatant than a Fighter and respond with personal insults as a way of supporting your decision to ignore this reality?You asked for them. Both characters are Level 12. Attributes and Magic Items not relating to the question of damage output are ignored.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...
Just for the record, it's highly likely that a Fighter using a Greatsword or Falchion, with feats and stats to match, would easily outdo your friend's damage.
Additionally, he doesn't have Smite Evil, as the Sacred Shield archetype trades that ability out.
It sounds an awful lot like you're calling sour grapes because he's playing an optimized class and you're not.
You also happened to leave out a ton of relevant information that would help us figure out exactly what's going on. In Swivl's example, it was pretty obvious that his friend had been using things like age categories to create a stronger character than would normally be available, but it looks like your buddy hasn't really done anything out there. Maybe it does more damage than you, but he can't fly, he has no option for easily dealing with ranged targets, and if he has to move, most of those attacks aren't getting used.
You, as a Dex-based Fighter, can bust out a Longbow and be damn effective with it, where even if he did the same, he'd not be anywhere near as adept with it.
+1
So was this relatively easy like in relation to a 600 page thread, or did something go horribly wrong?
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I notice the warrior is also missing out on natural attacks, something many races provide and some items provide.
Do a search for Duskblade's argument and mine over monks and fighters. What your finding here is not a problem with synthesists, natural attacks combined with weapon attacks is what's causing the problem with gaps here.
If the fighter uses natural attacks (which are available) he can do very well. IE even one lets say tiefling "maw" attack into your equation above, +14 to hit with it, + any other bonuses you throw in. It starts to rapidly close the gap.
You have the eidolon listed as evolutions 14+1, where's the +1 coming from, you haven't mentioned what race (for favored class bonus) nor have you mentioned extra evolution feat.
Secondly, you have no method for overcoming DR in either build which is prevalent at lvl 6 even, specially at lvl 12...
Also your bite, despite your evolution will still only deal half str on the attacks when you use the katana, because they are always considered secondary and the bite evolution has no "always deals 1-1/2str" clause.
Your total attack looks like BAB 10/5
Since your total str is 28(+you get +17/+12 with Katana 1d8 (or if you bought a large one 2d6) +12(you said two handed), and for the secondary natural attacks you're looking at +17x5 +4 (half of 9 rounded down) +1d6 damage. Remember when you add Weapon attacks with natural attacks, all natural attacks are automatically secondary (and thus get only half str unless listed otherwise, which evolutions have no ability that lets secondary attacks deal normal damage, and yes I didn't go the -5 for the secondary I only did -2 due to the multi-attack ability)
Unless I'm missing something, that's a bit different than the numbers you have presented.
+17/+12 +2 Flaming Katana and 4 tentacles at +18 1d4+1d6+5 and bite +18 1d8+5.
So 6 of the attacks will hit roughly half the time assuming ac+15 rule. and the itterative for the katana only 25%.
-edit- added +1 from AoMF
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Hustonj, I was saying you listed 14+1 without specifying where the +1 point came from. Since it's not listed under the feats (extra evolution) nor do you list what race it is, we're left guessing. I have to assume it's from a favored class that grants +1/4 evolution, but since you haven't actually posted a full build we can't know that.
You also didn't include a +4 belt in your build description etc.
This was no assumption, it was me telling you where you're messing up and not explaining things and asking for a explanation, because what you posted was missing information or was flat wrong (one of the two)
My own suggestion is that you not use herolab and sit down with pen and paper and write out what the eidolon will be taking and using, then type it up. Hero lab makes a considerable number of mistakes, specifically when it's dealing with natural and manufactured attacks.
I'm assuming you picked up the two craft feats solely to double your effective character wealth.
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You have the eidolon listed as evolutions 14+1, where's the +1 coming from, you haven't mentioned what race (for favored class bonus) nor have you mentioned extra evolution feat.False. I posted both the TWW and Synthesist builds under spoiler tags several posts up. If you want to argue about the builds, look at the actual in-play builds before you start telling me about your assumptions of errors based on your unwillingness to do more than guess for your own purposes.
Looking back at that post, I see I forgot to mention the Belt of Strength +4, so you would reasonably assume a Strength of 28~30 (based on attribute increase placement) instead of the effective 33 that the Synthesist's Eidolon gets to use instead.
Here's what I was quoting by the way (from the spoiler tags you have suggested I wasn't reading but was quoting from...)
Eidolon 8 HD, BAB +8, Armor +8, Str/Dex +4, Evolution Pool 14(+1), Max Natural Attacks 5, Darkvision, Link, Share Spells, Evasion, Ability Score Increasex2, Devotion, Multiattack
There are other things you've neglected as well like where the ability point increases went, STR? con? dex?
@swivl:
Neither should be banned :-)This thread started with the claim that synthesists are OP by default. I have seen no evidence of this so far. I could make builds with other classes that are stronger and have less weaknesses. They would then cause problems, too, right?
If your player made an effective build, that is fine. If the others are too ineffective, you can either improve them, use the weaknesses of the synthesist, or ask the player to redesign.
And maybe it isn't even the builds, but the tactics and roles in the group?
Maybe you didn't recall my entire explanation, but the decision wasn't made lightly.
My group doesn't ban anything, except now synthesists.
We've been the same group for years; we know what to expect out of each other. This was far too much even for our optimizing player.
Well, I got home and set up a spreadsheet instead of doing everything by hand in a browser window at work.
I DID work against a constant target number through all of my exercises. Your complaint was that I used a number you don't like, not that I didn't use a consistent number. Internally consistent comparisons are exactly that, internally consistent.
Using a TN of 27, here are the adjusted numbers (including an adjustment for the fact that the +2 Flaming Katana is actually a +2 Flaming Burst Katana).
Synthesist with big bite: 90.13125
Synthesist with small bite: 84.13125
TWW without Power Attack: 77.55
TWW with Power Attack: 62.4
THF with PA/Furious Focus: 71.3975
THF without Power Attack: 67.8675I did adjust the PA values to correct my original miscalculations (+8 with primary one-handed, +4 with off-hand one-handed, and +12 with two-handed). I also adjusted the THF numbers to reflect a +2 Flaming Burst weapon.
The TWW with Power Attack is the worst total damage, interestingly enough, while the TWW without PA is the third best total, beat only by the Synthesist. More frequent lighter hits are more valuable than less frequent harder hits. None of the Fighter-based melee builds meet the melee damage output from the Wizard-variant class, however.
As for the weapons being too small for character level, with the exception of the theoretical THF, these are characters in an AP, reflecting the equipment they are actually carrying. I assigned the THF an equivalent weapon so that the comparison would remain internally consistent.
Edit:
Hey! And if I swap out for Bleeding Critical instead of Power Attack, the TWW damage becomes an average of 86.79 (assuming only 1 round of Bleed per hit)!
Edit 2:
Interestingly enough, if I swap out the 2 levels of Paladin for 2 more Levels of Synthesist, there is no net change to the Eidolon's attack rolls! It gains another Hit die and another bump to both Strength and Dexterity to offset the loss of +2 BAB. The Strength bump increases base...
Tonight I get access to my computer again, I might do some calculations on my own then. Yours seem kinda skewed.
Lantzkev already pointed out some large errors in your calculations for the eidolon, so you need to consider and correct that to get a meaningful result.
I second that hero lab is no basis to argue stats for a character: it is good software, but it makes lots of mistakes.
You are also very biased with your equipment: a +4 weapon (pricewise) for the eidolon, but only +2 ones for your build? This is just not adequate, and the AP argument does not cut it when discussing classes in general and not specific builds.
You really fail to show problems with the synthesist in general with your arguments. What is clear is that your specific build is worse than his relatively speaking - which has been pretty obvious and stated by me before.
Finally, on a side note, focusing on dpr is one thing, survivability is another. Those 2 levels of paladin boosted that a lot, so they are not unimportant.
Oh, something I had wondered about and just checked: the eidolon's bab does not stack with those of the paladin, so it would have a +8 on that, not +10 :-)
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oh yeah, I completely forgot that the synthesist version uses the eidolons BAB while merged. lol.
Again this is why it's a easy class to screw up, and it's why multiclassing generally negates it's offenses, although multiclassing can make it a very hard to beat tank. Thanks for pointing that out, for even I included it when I was going over this!
If nothing else, I must say the summoner in general and the synthesist in particular have an issue with being easier to build powerful than it is to build it legit.
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I didn't cherry pick, I just didn't see it listed. I know it's not in eidolon feat since as a synthesist they don't get any.
I'm still waiting on you to make this proper and show how it's soo much more powerful (again it's not, you keep messing things up and that's how it is, and even what you've shown is not so awe inspiring as you led folks to believe)
I give up.
Those who think the synteist is broken have posted build. Those who think the syntesist isn't haven't. Not counting the kensei build - which had a slight advantage over the syntesust build without item. But not much.
So instead of attacking the twf fighter build, or saying barbarians can do it better. Post a build... then i can respond with - yes but that's a superoptimized build. and you spend money on items...
And a few points.
A) barbarians extra hp from rage. Isn't as good as real hp, since you loose them if you stop raging.
B) what is the barbarians AC? I really don't care about a little DR if most attack will hit him
C) yes the syntesist build i presented took extra evolution - but cause it's a good feat, and because i might have missed something - so extra evolution points was there to be on the safe side... but since no other build have been presentend i'll just assume there id nothing better to use feats on. So if a fighter have more feats they will have to use tgose feat to be even remotely close to the syntesist's powerlevel. While the syntesist should take PA as any other melee char shold.
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Nothing in any of the builds posted is unreasonable (except the Age category cheesing).
Yes, Synthesists have pretty good AC, but is not nearly as much of an offensive juggernaut as has been claimed. Sure, you can build a level 11 Synthesist starting there with no items, but would they have necessarily been able to get there, especially considering the fact that they're not so great for the first few levels?
Most of the complaints about Synthesists should be leveled at overly permissive DMs and players who are trying to game the system.
And for the record, I have no interest in convincing you I'm correct, merely pointing out that I disagree with pretty much everything you have to say on the subject. If Paizo wants to errata the Synthesist, more power to them, but as it is, it's unlikely anyone cares about these proposed changes.
So do you allow leadership and Undead Lord clerics?
We do allow leadership, with occasional caveats such as picking NPCs from a pre-made list and making efforts in-game to be a leader. There were a couple of games I didn't allow necromancers because they would have been on the wrong side of the conflict. Otherwise, if they can keep all that paperwork in line and have decently quick turns there's nothing really stopping them from trying.
Most of the complaints about Synthesists should be leveled at overly permissive DMs and players who are trying to game the system.
Who decides what is permissible? Who decides what is too much and too little? Maybe what I do is just fine and your group is just fine, too.
The synthesist player is same guy I've gamed with for more than 10 years. He's not trying to pull one over on me every time he makes a character.
What I was getting at was that while the age rules are not meant for what a synthesist does, they are both part of the rules in the books. If the age rules can be taken advantage of to make overpowered synthesists and nothing else, it is the synthesist that is wrong, not the age rules.
So my question again becomes do I make special rules that only apply to synthesists, change them so they work better, ban them outright, or do nothing and see my next AP steamrolled by a party of them?
I don't think synthesists are that weak at low levels, even with dumped physical stats. While they can't partake in melee, their casting will be quite decent - disregarding age category cheese, they'll still be decent backup casters. Being able to Summon Monster 1 as a standard action that lasts a minute 7 times per day is pretty powerful at 1st level, and it's got two 1st level spells from a quite awesome list including such top-power wizard spells as Enlarge Person and Grease. At low levels, it'll work much as a buffer/summoner wizard with less offense and more defense.
Well alot of builds are relative weak the first few levels. The magus build presentend couldn't do any damage before it got dervish dance...
That's why you should look at the capstones. When does the build/class get acces to something that stands out. Like pounce, the large evolution, flight...
Low level syntesist - mage armor, a decent amount of hp's and he can still be in melee - he's just not awesome yet. A 2hw melee char will mostlikely do more dam.
I can't remember who said it - an this thread has become too long for me to check - but the offensive powers of the syntesist is unbalanced because the rules for natural attacks are unbalanced. So i don't feel the need to dig into it.
But add a vicious, flaming amulet og mighty fist, a acid hand item (deliquid what ever) and a +6 str item to the build. And yiu have +4d6+3 dam pr attack (not bite) is that enough to make you see the potientiel for damage? And well the damage from vicious is some of the only damage the syntesist is gonna get in melee so he can take it.
The unbalanced AC - well no barbarian, fighter or even paladin build have been presentend. So again syntesist win, without trying...
And no this isn't the kind of thing you end up with a concensus. Some haven't played with a syntesist, others have tried with a superoptimized build themselves, or perhaps with a 25 point buy, and perhaps a syntesist player that was more interested in making an angel eidolon, which would look cool on his paladin/syntisist even if it made the build less of a monster in melee. Might be more acceptable in society, and perhaps he spend alot of points being king of skills.
What ever the case gaming experince with the syntesist may be different from group to group so you can't expect people to agree on something so heartfelt..
Nothing in any of the builds posted is unreasonable (except the Age category cheesing).
Yes, Synthesists have pretty good AC, but is not nearly as much of an offensive juggernaut as has been claimed. Sure, you can build a level 11 Synthesist starting there with no items, but would they have necessarily been able to get there, especially considering the fact that they're not so great for the first few levels?
Most of the complaints about Synthesists should be leveled at overly permissive DMs and players who are trying to game the system.
And for the record, I have no interest in convincing you I'm correct, merely pointing out that I disagree with pretty much everything you have to say on the subject. If Paizo wants to errata the Synthesist, more power to them, but as it is, it's unlikely anyone cares about these proposed changes.
I second this.
I also do not see any need or necessity to convince anyone of my opinion. However, this thread started with the claim that it was "consensus" that synthesists are overpowered. Nothing in this thread has convinced me of that. We have
- incorrect builds
- partial information
- reasoning that specific builds are weak because APs didn't provide better items and thus a certain build is not as good as a synthesist build and thus the whole class is overpowered
- complete negation of the weaknesses of the synthesist that have to be taken into account when the class archetype as a whole is being discussed
So I have not been convinced of anything. If Paizo sees the need to change anything, I may change my mind. With what has been shown here I hardly expect there to be any reaction like that, though.
If nothing else, I must say the summoner in general and the synthesist in particular have an issue with being easier to build powerful than it is to build it legit.
That is probably true, particularly when multiclassing :-)
I don't think synthesists are that weak at low levels, even with dumped physical stats. While they can't partake in melee, their casting will be quite decent - disregarding age category cheese, they'll still be decent backup casters. Being able to Summon Monster 1 as a standard action that lasts a minute 7 times per day is pretty powerful at 1st level, and it's got two 1st level spells from a quite awesome list including such top-power wizard spells as Enlarge Person and Grease. At low levels, it'll work much as a buffer/summoner wizard with less offense and more defense.
I disagree here. When you play APs like Serpent Skull with a synthesist like that, you will most likely die. There is way too much poison, negative environmental effects, save or suck (sometimes die) stuff involved that you won't have a chance to avoid.
Survivability is key for builds, and a min-maxed synthesist like that loses in that department.
I give up.
Those who think the synteist is broken have posted build. Those who think the syntesist isn't haven't.
Illegal and incorrect multiclassed builds with wrong and only partial information have been presented. Pointing those errors out is legitimate.
Not counting the kensei build - which had a slight advantage over the syntesust build without item. But not much.
Arguing that a synthesist without items would be better than another class without items is not helpful. Some classes benefit more from items than others, and your synthesist will profit much less from it than for example a fighter.
So that argument does not win any points with me at least.
So instead of attacking the twf fighter build, or saying barbarians can do it better. Post a build... then i can respond with - yes but that's a superoptimized build. and you spend money on items...
Well, though I did not bring it up, barbarian would likely do more damage. It would lose in other departments, though. And you have to like the rage mechanic which at least I do not :-)
And a few points.
A) barbarians extra hp from rage. Isn't as good as real hp, since you loose them if you stop raging.
B) what is the barbarians AC? I really don't care about a little DR if most attack will hit him
C) yes the syntesist build i presented took extra evolution - but cause it's a good feat, and because i might have missed something - so extra evolution points was there to be on the safe side... but since no other build have been presentend i'll just assume there id nothing better to use feats on. So if a fighter have more feats they will have to use tgose feat to be even remotely close to the syntesist's powerlevel.
As pointed out, a synthesist - particularly a min-maxed one - has quite a few weaknesses that for example a fighter does not have. It certainly has also some strengths. But are they that significant?
How does it fare against a bard, for example?But nothing has been shown that is as powerful as you and others have claimed.
While the syntesist should take PA as any other melee char shold.
This is actually an interesting question for me: Is it possible at all? The eidolon gets no feats of its own. But would power attack from the summoner be usable by the eidolon shell? The description states that "While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear, except for his armor.". So does power attack count as an "ability"? Or does this only refer to spell-like abilities, casting etc.? It's not really clear for me, though I am inclined to think that the feats would probably work... :-)
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The unbalanced AC - well no barbarian, fighter or even paladin build have been presentend. So again syntesist win, without trying...
Here is a misunderstanding: You see, you are making the claim that synthesists are overpowered. If anything you need to convince me and those who do not share your opinion - it's not the other way around :-)
Fighters and other classes can rock very high ACs while still being strong offensively. Read any guide or look at the build combinations and you will see. :-)
One thing I recall reading a lot from GMs who have dealt with the Synthesist is that it's much harder to challenge them while not crushing the rest of the party than other classes / archetypes. This was consistent PFS feedback that Mike received. I wonder what about them specifically caused this difficulty that the base summoner didn't have. My hypothesis was that it was the double HP that played a big part in this.
There must be a reason why the synth was banned for balance reasons and the summoner was not. I'm not satisfied with "people are idiots".
There was an archetype by one of the alternates in the 2011 RPG SS that is a lot like the synth, but generally better done.
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I won't argue that Synthesists, built incorrectly, can be massively ridiculous. And that in PFS, the Judge should not have to f@%#ing start pulling up seven different pages in the PRD, plus his books and the character's sheet to make sure they're not just outright building their eidolon wrong before every event.
The extra HP is really the only strong point of the Synthesist, in my mind, but that HP can only be restored by the Synthesist himself, or another Summoner. Any character can have way more HP than listed if they are receiving heals from another character (the Paladin's HP pool is absoltely massive compared to most other characters once they get LoH, for example).
One thing I recall reading a lot from GMs who have dealt with the Synthesist is that it's much harder to challenge them while not crushing the rest of the party than other classes / archetypes. This was consistent PFS feedback that Mike received. I wonder what about them specifically caused this difficulty that the base summoner didn't have. My hypothesis was that it was the double HP that played a big part in this.
There must be a reason why the synth was banned for balance reasons and the summoner was not. I'm not satisfied with "people are idiots".
There was an archetype by one of the alternates in the 2011 RPG SS that is a lot like the synth, but generally better done.
Cheapy, I won't argue that there may be issues. They just have not been shown to me in this thread, and I don't see them from looking at the archetype. :-)
I am rather inclined to think that it is pretty easy to build this kind of character incorrectly and thus make it really difficult to use them at PFS, discussing with disappointed players etc.
The extra HP certainly gives it some bonuses, other classes like the barbarian or those characters built specifically for high HP can cause this kind of problem as well, though (or characters that heal well, like paladin or inquisitor with fast-healer feat and high con...). I know from experience - I drove one of my GMs nuts just because I had 2x as many HPs as everyone else in the party, so he either did not challenge me and or endangered all the other characters. :-/
So I guess these are the reasons they got banned. Otherwise, if there was a real problem, I guess they would have changed something already (errata, faq, ruling, ...). :-)