Stunning fist and grapple

[Lobolusk]

What action exactly is stunning fist?

say I have orc 1 grappled and susceed on a standard action then I have a free grapple has a move action due to greater grapple? when I decide to deal damage i have to roll can I use my stunning fist.

my main objective is to grapple and then pinning knock out where I do double non lethal damage. when I roll to damage during a grapple.

I guess what I am asking is when during the grapple can i use the stunning fist with out stunning pin.

[StreamOfTheSky]

You must declare you are using stunning fist before making an attack roll with unarmed strike.

Grappling is an attack roll, as are all combat maneuvers. While RAW you can't treat it as a weapon-based attack, it is an attack and a successful hit deals unarmed damage, so I think stunning fist should be applicable to it, as long as your grapples are doing unarmed damage (ie, not using the grapple check to go for a pin or something rather than laying in muay thai knees).

[Lobolusk]

Thanks

[BW-Green]

StreamOfTheSky wrote:

You must declare you are using stunning fist before making an attack roll with unarmed strike.

Grappling is an attack roll, as are all combat maneuvers. While RAW you can't treat it as a weapon-based attack, it is an attack and a successful hit deals unarmed damage, so I think stunning fist should be applicable to it, as long as your grapples are doing unarmed damage (ie, not using the grapple check to go for a pin or something rather than laying in muay thai knees).

stunning fist, prd wrote:

Stunning Fist forces a foe damaged by your unarmed attack to make a Fortitude saving throw

combat section, prd wrote:

Unarmed Attacks: ....

So "unarmed attack" is an attack type (combat section prd) and stunning fist specifically requires this attack type.

Combat maneuvers have an attack roll but are of the type "combar maneuver" not "unarmed attack" therefore you cannot apply stunning fist to the grapple combat maneuver.

Lobolusk wrote:

say I have orc 1 grappled and susceed on a standard action then I have a free grapple has a move action due to greater grapple?

Greater Grapple lets you maintain a grapple as a move action (thus freeing your standard action).

If you start your turn grappling an foe you can maintain the grapple as a move action (Greater Grapple) and if you succeed pin him (Action for the successful maintaining of the Grapple) and the use your standard action to attack him (using stunning fist if you like) or tie him up which should be the better option in most cases.

[Dabbler]

By RAW, you cannot apply stunning fist through a grapple as it is not an attack roll. However, I'd let you do it as applying a choke-hold or Vulcan neck-pinch etc.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Grapple is an attack roll. All combat maneuvers are attack rolls. The CM section specifically says this.

The issue is that grapple is not technically an unarmed attack, and thus strict RAW you cannot apply stunning fist to it, even though it a) is an attack and b) can be used to inflict unarmed damage.

I said "should be able to." It makes sense to allow it. By strict RAW, it does not, but strict RAW is silly as hell in many instances and this is one of them, IMO.

[joe kirner]

You need stunning pin feat

[Trekkie90909]

If you choose to deal damage when maintaining grapple you could choose to do that with an unarmed strike, thus allowing you to use stunning fist.

Alternatively if you have greater grapple or the like and have a remaining standard action after maintaining grapple you could make an attack that way.

[DJBrash]

Trekkie90909 wrote:

If you choose to deal damage when maintaining grapple you could choose to do that with an unarmed strike, thus allowing you to use stunning fist.

Alternatively if you have greater grapple or the like and have a remaining standard action after maintaining grapple you could make an attack that way.

I defiantly agree with you on that, If you are using you unarmed strike to deal the damage then you should get to designate that unarmed strike as being a Stunning Fist