Mounted Double Pounce

[blackbloodtroll]

Situation:

Rider has Pounce, and Mount has Pounce.

Mount charges.

Do both mount and rider have the ability to Full-Attack?

[MechE_]

Pounce - Pathfinder PRD wrote:

Pounce (Ex) When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).

As far as I can tell, the answer is no. The condition "when a creature with this special attack makes a charge" is not met for the rider when the mount charges. However...

Mounted Combat - Pathinder PRD wrote:

If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge).

I think this line is unclear for this question. The first 2 sentences indicate that you gain some of the drawbacks and benefits of the charge instead of just saying that your character also gets the "charging" condition. On the flip side, the last line could be used to support the idea that you can get a full attack, though I personally don't read it that way.

[Quatar]

Well there's the Mounted Skirmisher feat, that lets you do full attacks if the mount moves it's speed or less.

[blackbloodtroll]

Quatar wrote:

Well there's the Mounted Skirmisher feat, that lets you do full attacks if the mount moves it's speed or less.

Can that be used with Ride-by Attack?

[TGMaxMaxer]

So... if the mount charges at least 10 feet and less than full... you both get a full attack?

That seems to be right... and super sweet if GM's didn't hate mounts.

[blackbloodtroll]

Small PCs with medium Mounts are the easiest to deal with.

[TGMaxMaxer]

... And only 3 feats... mounted combat, trick riding, mounted skirmisher... but at 14 ranks in ride... you should be able to do this. 14th level at the earliest.

[blackbloodtroll]

Just to be sure: A rider on a charging mount does not count as charging?

[Quatar]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Quatar wrote:

Well there's the Mounted Skirmisher feat, that lets you do full attacks if the mount moves it's speed or less.

Can that be used with Ride-by Attack?

I don't know tbh. I can see arguments for either answer, so best check with your GM

[Quatar]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Just to be sure: A rider on a charging mount does not count as charging?

I'm pretty sure SKR or JB said something along those lines once.

[TGMaxMaxer]

Normal rules for mounted combat state that if your mount moves more than 5ft. you only get a standard attack.

Charging is a full round action, therefore i would not see how you would get to "count as charging" for the purpose of getting your full array of attacks.

Otherwise, there would be no need for the mounted skirmisher feat.

Since you cannot charge as a single standard attack, then you do not get to count as charging by anything I can see.

*EDIT: and please don't ask about charging as a standard while staggered on a mount so that it counts... being "limited" to get around the limits.

[blackbloodtroll]

What happens if your mount has the Rhino Charge feat, and thus is able to ready a charge?

[Talonhawke]

Quatar wrote:

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Just to be sure: A rider on a charging mount does not count as charging?

I'm pretty sure SKR or JB said something along those lines once.

If your not charging then how does spirited charge work? It says when mounted and using the charge action. So you have to charge but your mount doesn't?

[TGMaxMaxer]

Then the mount charges, and you need to ready your action to attack when the enemy comes into range.

The mount gets the pounce if it has it, you get 1 swing until you get to the mounted skirmisher feat to get a full attack.

[TGMaxMaxer]

So... to have the relevant rules section in front of us.

PFSRD CRB Combat section, Mounted Combat wrote:

Mounted Combat

These rules cover being mounted on a horse in combat but can also be applied to more unusual steeds, such as a griffon or dragon.

Mounts in Combat: Horses, ponies, and riding dogs can serve readily as combat steeds. Mounts that do not possess combat training (see the Handle Animal skill) are frightened by combat. If you don't dismount, you must make a DC 20 Ride check each round as a move action to control such a mount. If you succeed, you can perform a standard action after the move action. If you fail, the move action becomes a full-round action, and you can't do anything else until your next turn.

Your mount acts on your initiative count as you direct it. You move at its speed, but the mount uses its action to move.

A horse (not a pony) is a Large creature and thus takes up a space 10 feet (2 squares) across. For simplicity, assume that you share your mount's space during combat.

Combat while Mounted: With a DC 5 Ride check, you can guide your mount with your knees so as to use both hands to attack or defend yourself. This is a free action.

When you attack a creature smaller than your mount that is on foot, you get the +1 bonus on melee attacks for being on higher ground. If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can't make a full attack. Even at your mount's full speed, you don't take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted.

If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge).

You can use ranged weapons while your mount is taking a double move, but at a –4 penalty on the attack roll. You can use ranged weapons while your mount is running (quadruple speed) at a –8 penalty. In either case, you make the attack roll when your mount has completed half its movement. You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving. Likewise, you can take move actions normally

Depends on if you read it as

a)your mount performs the charge action, and you get the melee benefits and penalties equal to a charge yourself, although you did not charge
or
b)You perform a charge, while you happen to be mounted, and just get to use the mounts speed for the movement calculations.

Since it distinctly separates the move as being done by the mount, and that you are able to attack per the specials here, or full attack with a ranged weapon, I believe that it is the former and not the latter. (otherwise you would not have to option to perform a full attack while your mount moves, since you have already moved).

But, I may be wrong if the bolded section classifies the ability to proc pounce is triggered as part of the "bonus gained from a charge" part.

[Wasum]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

What happens if your mount has the Rhino Charge feat, and thus is able to ready a charge?

That is really interesting. Its not really covered in the rules what happenes when mounts delay/ready at all.