I think the way it would work would be the Roc would fly down and grapple the first round, and the second round it makes a grapple check to move in the grapple.
I'm not entirely sure how you would pull off the swoop-by though, seems like it would be helpful against enemies and useful for friends who need to get out of trouble. Keeping my eye on the thread.
Yeah, I definitely want to hear how this turns out too. I think you might to change the title to something like Fly-by-Grapple to attract more of the heavy crunchers on the blogs. It might be because of the hour, but I can't even begin to think of a way to get it to work all in one round, which I think is what you're after.
Technically, I am not sure the move is actually possible... Since the rock also get the grappled condition (unless it takes -20 to the grab attempt), it isn't allowed to move.
However this suck, as it doesn't get much more flavorful than being dragged from the ground by a roc or dragons.
Disregarding that it might be illegal, I think the only feat you need is fly by attack. It allow you to make a standard action during your move.
You should also consider Improved grapple (and greater), as it will make the move possible without being able to hit them in melee.
Well there is fly by attack that lets you take a standard action anytime during your move action. It is a monster feat that a Roc could learn.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monsterFeats.html
Here is how grab works
Grab (Ex) If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab can only be used against targets of a size equal to or smaller than the creature with this ability. If the creature can use grab on creatures of other sizes, it is noted in the creature's Special Attacks line. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).
So if the Roc takes the -20 on its CMB on a Fly by Attack, you can grab someone and go.
i don't think it would work, since you would have to initiate the grapple, and you wouldn't be able to move away until your next turn when you maintain the grapple, that is the only time you are allowed to do any of the grapple actions, which include moving the person youre grappling with, is on the following turn when you successfully maintain the grapple.
Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).
so you can't move (which is one of the options) until the next turn when you maintain it, since it takes a standard action to initiate it, then a standard action to maintain, unless you somehow got 2 standard actions in one turn, you have to wait.
yeah, if you take the -20 option you aren't grappled yourself, and can thus move freely,
but that doesn't move the target along with you...
what the roc could do, regardless of -20 option, is fly above and past the creature, and using it's reach (possibly with lunge) grapple the target, who according to the grapple rules is moved to an adjacent square of the roc... even if that square[cube] is in mid-air: you can choose which adjacent square you want the target to move to (as long as it isn't harmful, which would force a second CMB check if you tried that).
on the next round, whether the roc themself is grappled or not, they can use the move option of maintain a grapple to move the target and themself. if the roc themself isn't grappled (-20 option) they can move as far as they can keep the target within their reach (including lunge) and then do the same thing (maintain for move) after the target is automatically moved adjacent to them, in this case being able to move the distance of their reach in addition to the normal move option. or if they have grab, they can do a normal damaging attack with grab after moving normally themself, re-initiating a grapple and moving the target adjacent, again (since a grapple doesn't drop until you haven't maintained it in your turn, i see no reason why the target must actually be 'dropped' first: thus, the target would suffer the penalties to DEX/AC from being grappled vs. the new grab attack/maneuver).
if the roc is using the -20 option and tries to move themself after using fly-by with grapple, the target is moved adjacent (if not already) and then the roc moves (the target isn't carried along, that is only done via the move maintain option, and automatically being moved adjacent on a succesful grapple check), which potentially puts the roc outside the target's reach, or the roc's own reach to the target.
the rules don't give any conditions whereby a grapple is ended early beyond the controller not maintaining it on their next turn, but i house-rule that if the controller does not threaten the target with the means they used for the grapple, the grapple is ended. so if the fly-by roc flies far enough away from it's grapple target that it no longer threatens it, the grapple is dropped immediately... likewise if the target dimension doors away from the grapple and the grappler's grasp, the grapple is dropped (in that case, teleporting ANY distance away, even if within reach, seems reasonable to end the grapple since they didn't move continually within reach, they just disappeared and reappeared).
but if using the -20 option, the roc COULD move away after the initial grab during a fly-by, or on subsequent rounds after either just simply maintaining/re-initiating as a standard action and then moving, or using fly-by to maintain-re-initiate... potentially leaving the target in a position where it is unable to counter-attack the roc (but within the roc's own reach, if using my house-rule). due to wording the grapple rules, it seems like a target of grapple ALWAYS has the option to escape (or reverse) the grapple regardless of whether they threaten the controller or not (on a reverse, that would move the previous controller to an adjacent square of the now-controller).
they eat cows because their size bonus to CMD makes it easy to fly off with them :) they are gargantuan after all :) its just roc animal companions that are weird and dont get very big. game balance and all that.
how is that silly? humans usually use their legs to move, and legs aren't a usual part of a grapple hold.
the means i outlined above seems pretty adequate to allow a good number of tactical options.
EDIT: exactly, using the -20 option really enables this type of tactic, and you are going to see the -20 option in use where the attacker can confidently use it, i.e. the prey's CMB/CMD is just out-classed by the attacker's stats. that means prey creatures like cows vs. gargantuan rocs, or eagles vs. rabbits. this type of tactic doesn't need to be usable all the time, i.e. the type of reliability you would want in COMBAT with a signifigant enemy, because it's used (by real-world animals) as a means to feed, so they can fly around all day, and if only half the attempts work, that is really doing great, they aren't really in danger of being killed by the prey creatures, even if the tactic doesn't work 100% of the time - same as any other predator vs. prey situation.
i think real world application of physics doesnt work when you apply them to game mechanics. peregrine falcons commonly kill ducks while in flight, and ducks are a hell of a lot heavier and bigger than them (peregrines males max weight is 1.7 pounds, ducks can be up to 3.5 pounds)
if you don't want to use your whole body to grapple, use the -20 option, that's what it's for.
EDIT: Consider a Roc without the flyby attack feat. It would have to move then stop to grapple its prey then start flying again. So it would flap its wings to slow down near the prey (move action), "hover" and concentrate on grabbing the prey (cmb), then fly away (second round move) and this is at half speed since it has to start flapping its wings again. I still don't see why it its talons are wrapped around its prey why wouldn't it be able to move at full speed in subsequent rounds.
ending a move action doesn't mean you stopped moving and are standing still in dead space. taking non-stop move actions round after round still involves ending move actions. the fly rules depend on if you moved in a round. if you did, then you don't have to make a hover check. the round/turn system is an abstraction of CONTINUAL action, after all.
you can run a non-fly by grab as the attacker moving at FULL speed, passing the target and attacking them with reach to move them to an adjacent square of their choice, then on subsequent rounds using the move option, which may not be full speed compared to a 2x move, but this is encumbered flight we are now discussing. finally, expecting the rules to exactly model anything is absurd. real animals will probably be snapping necks, etc, all while they grab and carry a prey. the rules work pretty good to run a dynamic immersive game. if you have a problem with them, then feel free to house-rule.
Well the -20 thing lets you grab party members in need. We're this in 3.5 they could automatically fail their grapple check? Maybe one could argue that they could take -1000 on their CMD or something? It's like a low budget dimension door.
As far as enemies go I think you're going to have trouble taking one round to grab and fly away. If there was a way you could some how give it greater grapple or even that rapid grappling feat then you could use it's other grapple actions to fly away. You'd have to pump it's int to get it improved unarmed etc etc etc but I think it may be a strange RAW way to focus on that.
EDIT: looking at the grapple flow chart if the defender isn't adjacent to attacker it moves to a spot that is. So if the attack flies by grabs and continues movement would the defender then move to an adjacent space?
I believe that was already covered up-thread...
??? The -20 option is in no way related to a grapple target being automatically moved to an adjacent spot.
To your question, repeating what I wrote before: NO, nothing in the rules says the target 'sticks' to the grappler, they are moved adjacent AT THE TIME OF THE GRAPPLE CHECK, so subsequent movement of the Fly-By Grappler wouldn't also move the target automatically.
I did already go into the tactical implication of that rule, as a way to not even necessarily use Fly-By, but be able to Grab from 15' away (10' Reach + Lunge) and move the target into the air (adjacent square), from that point either using just the Move Option of Maintain on subsequent rounds, or taking advantage of the +5 for Maintaining to counteract the -20 option and move a bit further than just the Move Option would allow. If you have Greater Grapple and were starting out close enough that you didn't need more than a 5' Step, then you can do the Move Option to Maintain on the first round after initiating the Grab.
roc is the best companion that flies, i don't think it is the best companion. damage is usually more important than anything else and
anything with rake and pounce (large cats, some dinosaurs) will out-damage any other animal companion in the long run
and you can just cast a fly spell(or use an item) on a companion with pounce AND grab.
i like ankylosaurus's stun tail attack alot. nice AC too.
You can move someone when grappled at half your speed, taking them with you. I posted all the grapple rules for further reference.
Grapple
As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options. If you do not have Improved Grapple, grab, or a similar ability, attempting to grapple a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll. If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition. If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails). Although both creatures have the grappled condition, you can, as the creature that initiated the grapple, release the grapple as a free action, removing the condition from both you and the target. If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).
Move
You can move both yourself and your target up to half your speed. At the end of your movement, you can place your target in any square adjacent to you. If you attempt to place your foe in a hazardous location, such as in a wall of fire or over a pit, the target receives a free attempt to break your grapple with a +4 bonus.
Damage
You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.
Pin
You can give your opponent the pinned condition (see Conditions). Despite pinning your opponent, you still only have the grappled condition, but you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC.
Tie Up
If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up. This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead of your CMD). The ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin. If you are grappling the target, you can attempt to tie him up in ropes, but doing so requires a combat maneuver check at a –10 penalty. If the DC to escape from these bindings is higher than 20 + the target's CMB, the target cannot escape from the bonds, even with a natural 20 on the check.
If You Are Grappled
If you are grappled, you can attempt to break the grapple as a standard action by making a combat maneuver check (DC equal to your opponent's CMD; this does not provoke an attack of opportunity) or Escape Artist check (with a DC equal to your opponent's CMD). If you succeed, you break the grapple and can act normally. Alternatively, if you succeed, you can become the grappler, grappling the other creature (meaning that the other creature cannot freely release the grapple without making a combat maneuver check, while you can). Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that doesn’t require two hands to perform, such as cast a spell or make an attack or full attack with a light or one-handed weapon against any creature within your reach, including the creature that is grappling you. See the grappled condition for additional details. If you are pinned, your actions are very limited. See the pinned condition in Conditions for additional details.
Multiple Creatures
Multiple creatures can attempt to grapple one target. The creature that first initiates the grapple is the only one that makes a check, with a +2 bonus for each creature that assists in the grapple (using the Aid Another action). Multiple creatures can also assist another creature in breaking free from a grapple, with each creature that assists (using the Aid Another action) granting a +2 bonus on the grappled creature's combat maneuver check.
fly-by and take -20 on your CMB that all you need it been that way since 3.0 D&D.
So what are you trying to say with that?
also here for a comparison of animal companions.
i have looked at those numbers a lot of times, and still cannot figure out why he makes some animal companions better than others. he can only base those numbers on making certain statistics/abilities better than others, and that is entirely his opinion, which i believe many people will disagree with, including me.
the ability to pounce and rake are the best things an animal companion can have, because they do the most damage, especially if you give them the dragon style feats after getting their int to 3. abilities like flight can be given with spells, but the ability to get 5 attacks on a charge cannot. and if you go first, and do on average over 100 damage with a pounce (which is pretty easily done as a level 12 sylvan sorcerer with a robe of arcane heritage) you take even BBEG out before they even get their first turn.
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Went through this exact scenario a few weeks ago in my campaign. Here's how we ran it:
Round 1. Roc moves adjacent to drow warrior and attacks with its claws gaining a free Grab. Roc succeeds in grappling drow.
Round 2. Roc beats drow's CMD to lift drow into the air and moves at half speed into the air. Because the drow didn't know if the bird was going to try to drop him from a dangerous height or into the nearby river of lava, I gave the warrior the free attempt to break the hold (dropping him from a great height or into the lava would basically be moving him into a hazardous location.) The drow failed to break the grapple and went for a ride.
Round 3. Roc beat the drow's CMD again and continued to move the drow another 40 feet toward its druid master. The drow failed to reverse the grapple in an attempt to wrestle the roc to the ground. This check was made on the drow's turn and not for free.
Round 4. Roc beats the drow's CMD again, flies toward the druid and drops the drow 20 feet to land adjacent to the druid. I gave the drow another get-out-of-grapple-free check since he was definitely going to take damage from the fall and probably get wasted by the waiting druid. He failed that check, took the fall and got finished off by the druid.
The roc couldn't use Flyby Attack to instantly pluck the drow from the ground because Flyby only allows one standard action and Grapple and Grapple/Move are two standard actions. Even with Grab, the standard action is used up by the attack so no Grapple/Move in round one.
I'm not aware of anything the roc companion could do to Grapple and Grapple/Move an opponent in one round. Haste won't work because Grapple can't be done as part of a Full Attack and Snatch won't work because the roc is too small to take that feat and the feat doesn't actually work that way anyway.
But using natural Reach and/or Lunge, and the 'automatically move adjacent' rule, the Roc CAN pluck the target into the air and be in a position where nearby melee types who can't fly (or jump high enough) are unable to counter-attack it (or aid another).
I wouldn't have given multiple free chances to escape like that, for what is essentially the same potential threat. Since it's the same threat of falling, I don't think it's 'placing them in a hazardous situation' as they are already IN the hazardous situation. Being threatened by enemies isn't really a hazardous situation you are placing them in, again because you yourself already threaten them so that isn't a new hazardous situation, and being threatened by enemies isn't the same thing as certain damage.
If a free check to escape did occur while flying, what happens if the Grapple is broken? The target would fall from their current, dangerous position. Or I guess you could invoke the normal rules for Breaking Grapples, allowing a Reverse, and say the target would now be Grappling their previous Grappler, meaning nobody can move and the original grappler needs to do Hover checks for both of them to not plummet to the ground.
I previously wrote that the 'automatically move adjacent' rule is subject to the free escape check for placing in a hazardous situation, but technically it doesn't seem to be, only the Move/Maintain option says that, so I suppose one COULD move a target adjacent, into a Wall of Fire, etc, on the initial Grab/Grapple, although I feel that by intent that would justify the free escape attempt (before being moved), in which case the target still is grappled but is not adjacent to the grappler.
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The Reach and Lunge would work to get the target off the ground, but it doesn't let the bird immediately fly away. It'd still have to spend a round above the spot where it picked up the target. Still, it would be useful for keeping the bird away from melee.
I only gave the drow two checks to get out of the grapple for free. One for the pickup because they were so close to the lava and the roc could have flung him into the river so I figured the drow would do everything he could to free himself. The second for when the roc dropped him at the druid's feet. If he'd succeeded, I would have ruled he just reversed the grapple and was now hanging from the roc while it tried to shake him loose.
If we played through the scenario again, I'd probably only give the drow one opportunity to break the grapple for free. In the moment, I gave him two, but I knew the drow had almost no shot at breaking the hold with a CMB of +4 versus the roc's CMD of something like 27.
Can you break down the damage for me
are you asking about damage from a pounce?
Generally you move and take a standard action, or take a standard action and move. The standard rules don't account for Flyby Attack or Grab. Therefore I submit that a Roc could indeed swoop in, grab a victim, then Flyby Attack out away again all within the same turn.
That's obviously the intent of the roc, swoops in, flies away.
For what it's worth, I've asked Mr. Jacobs about it, since it seems like a RAI vs RAW issue.
So what are you trying to say with that?
also here for a comparison of animal companions.
Basically, I think you can go either way on this issue and it depends on how your DM rules it.
Also, look at it this way, your question is no longer, is it possible, but instead how to go about it. It can either be done in one round with fly by attack, or in two rounds.
ok it breaks down like this. i use a lion because i've always been fond of large cats, and at 12th level a robe of arcane heritage will increase you AC level to equivalent of a 16th level druid's AC
level feat/stat choice
1 power attack
2 weapon focus: claws
4 increase stat: +1 int, now with a 3 int it can take any feat
5 Improved Unarmed Strike
8 Feral Combat Training: Claws
9 increase stat: +1 str
10 Dragon style
13 stunning fist
14 increased stat: +1 str
16 dragon ferocity
first round of combat, use transformation on AC (use blood money if youre cheap like me to avoid paying for the component
this gives +4 str/dex/con and makes his BAB (normally 9) equal to his HD (which is 12)
so str32 dex24 con21 int3 wis15 cha10
by this time you can easily afford an amulet of mighty fists +3, make it vicious and holy(or instead of holy, make it any 2 elemental increases)
so against an evil creature (with holy) or anything without the resistances against the 2 elemental choices(for elemental AoMF) a pounce would be:
dragon style ignores intervening people, so you can pounce pretty much anyone within range
You ignore difficult terrain when you charge, run, or withdraw. You can also charge through squares that contain allies.
including transformation, charge, and power attack:
bite:
+20 to hit, 1d8+2d6(vicious)+2d6(holy/elemental)+21 (average 39.5)
first claw:
+21 to hit 1d6+2d6(vicious)+2d6(holy/elemental)+36 (average 53.5)
other claw and 2 rakes(which are also claw attacks):
+21 to hit 1d6+2d6(vicious)+2d6(holy/elemental)+31 (average 48.5)
with all 5 hitting (which they should with +20/+21 to hit) that is average of 238.5 damage on a pounce, and 17.5 damage to the animal companion. note if you can position yourself correctly you can attack multiple targets to spread this damage around
the reason for the extra static damage on the claws is that you receive an extra 50% bonus to damage from power attack when you use a primary natural attack that does 50% extra damage. dragon ferocity adds 50% extra damage on all claw attacks, claw attacks are primary, so you get the bonus damage from power attack while using claws.
the extra damage on the first claw is using the dragon style feat to add an extra half your str bonus to damage on your first attack
plus you can stun someone with one of the claws, not that you would need to.
this is why i think an animal companion is the most powerful ability in the game, because all this required from a level 12 sorcerer was his first standard action. for the rest of the combat not only do i have this lion combat monster to rip things apart, i also have all the abilities of a level 12 sorcerer whose only feat to achieve this was boon companion.
Also Ravingdork I can't find where you asked him >_<
Either the system or an admin deleted my post. I tried it again a few minutes ago.
EDIT: He's flat out refused to answer, so I've asked him how he would run it in his own home games (meaning that his answer, should he choose to provide one at all, will have no official bearing on the rules).
Creative Director
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An admin removed your post because it looked to be off-topic.
It was.
The "Paizo needs to get its house in order" thread has convinced me that I should not be providing rulings or responses to complex rules questions, and that such questions are better served by being posted in threads like this one.
For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction, and all that!
So... FAQ the question and we'll hopefully get a reply online soon!
yea I saw and he responded to it...why don't they just make a ruling on it. This question has come up multiple times in the past and should be answered.
That's what every poster says about their latest rules question. To my knowledge, the only other time it came up was in a thread that I had started.
An admin removed your post because it looked to be off-topic.
It was.
Seeing as it was in the Off-Topics Discussion Forum, wouldn't that have made it totally appropriate? ;-P
So... FAQ the question and we'll hopefully get a reply online soon!
Works for me.
That's obviously the intent of the roc, swoops in, flies away.
And it worked pretty well with the "grapple at -20" option in 3.5E D&D, because 3.5E gave big bonuses to grapple for size. Unfortunately, that option doesn't work very well in Pathfinder.
How I would rule it for my home games.
Fly-by-Attack (Little bit grey area, but I think RAI):
1). Roc Moves via Flight
2). Roc hits with an attack (standard action) mid flight
3). Grab takes effect, Roc makes a free grapple check at -20 to not gain the grapple condition. (If the Roc gains the grapple condition, the only way it can move is when maintaining the grapple.)
4). Roc Suceeds in grapple, Roc now moves at half his speed. The victim gets an automatic check to escape the grapple at +4 when the Roc moves him high enough that he would take damage from a fall. That check occurs once. (This is the grey area, but I think it is RAI)
Without Fly-by-Attack. This reads to me like RAW, as the grapple rules explain how you move someone when you grapple.
Round 1:
1). Roc moves into Melee Range
2). Roc makes a grapple check
3). If Grapple is successful, victim moves adjacent to Roc, both creatures gain the grapple condition. If the victim is moved in a way that he would take damage from a fall or hazard, the automatic escape check at +4 occurs.
Round 2 and Subsequent Rounds:
1). Roc Maintains Grapple
2). If Roc maintains his grapple, he can move himself and the victim half his speed as part of the maintenance per the grapple rules. If the victim has not made the automatic save already (From the First Round and Subsequent Rounds, he would do so when the movement would be such that he would take damage from a fall or a hazard.
That's obviously the intent of the roc, swoops in, flies away.And it worked pretty well with the "grapple at -20" option in 3.5E D&D, because 3.5E gave big bonuses to grapple for size. Unfortunately, that option doesn't work very well in Pathfinder.
I never understood why the chose to make it -20. That's a hideously huge penalty!
Nothing will truly be able to make good use of it except in situations where it is a foregone conclusion (roc vs cow rather than roc vs CR-appropriate hero). I think it would be better to make it a -10 or -5. At least then we might actually see the option used in play.