Goblin Squad Member
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Hello everyone,
Just wanted to take a few minutes to share my list of concerns with the current Pathfinder Online kickstarter and MMO model.
I will be brutally honest, as will be the end consumer someday, while we have time to correct the course or at least think about.
First, paying a subscription for a beta. That's a really flawed concept if you measure that we already have pretty decent subscription-free premium games, like Guild Wars 2. I understand the "Gmail Beta" concept, but if we are already paying for the product (Gmail is free by the way), having a monthly upkeep for a project you're trying to help will not keep this game afloat, even if the target is just 2000 players, if the game is not better than all the options out there, with a subscription, they will just leave and won't look back.
Second, the flagship tagline for the product is: "A game where your actions are persistent, your characters can build kingdoms, and YOU are the storyteller!" and yet the plan is to offer the product without even a basic player housing. By 2015 I'm pretty sure we will have Archeage out and other premium online/lan games that really let you build, and with decent graphics too. I've found little on the current model that screams on how we will actually build our kingdoms or even a hut.
Third, forced PVP. Forced PVP games are all fun on paper but they haven't been floating that well, even more on the Western community. I (sorta) know the EVE PVP model but I personally don't believe it will translate that well for a game that's selling point is trying to let us "be the Storyteller". Pwning n00bs exploring is hardly roleplaying and every breach you leave open will be exploited and will drive many crafters/roleplayers away. More options on how to play the game won't hurt it, let PVP'ers face each other, for as long as they want, but a pacifist flag will not hurt the product either.
Anyhow, I'm currently backing the MMO, after backing the Demo, and I'm craving for a decent MMO but please believe when I say that you have one opportunity to make a good impression and you can make it without being a WoW clone or EVE on foot with swords. Not trying to argue either, just took sometime off my Sunday to voice my ideas, as this is a collaborative project.
Godspeed,
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've found little on the current model that screams on how we will actually build our kingdoms or even a hut.
Player-Created Buildings and Structures
I hope you find the link informative.
You can also check out Pathfinder Online - Community Information if you're interested.
WoW's Mists of Pandas, although released, is still in Beta. Millions still payed for it. That's more along the line PFO's Beta will be in reference to finished product. This is my understanding. Despite that, people have payed to be in both open and closed betas. It wouldn't be something new.
The biggest problem I see is the definition of many terms the larger mmo AND PnP crowds have preset in their minds. Most of these misunderstandings have been covered in the blogs. Beta, Class, Skills, MTX/Coin, PvP vs PvE areas, housing.... etc...
There is much information to go through that's already been released through the Dev Blogs. I know it can seem overwhelming, but taking the time to go through them does solve many of these misunderstandings. That said, pointing out perceived issues at this point in development is a great thing as it may reduce dev time on aspects that may be less than ideal.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Guild Wars 2 hasn't demonstrated a failure to implode just yet. SWTOR demonstrated that the AAA theme park isn't likely to be able to pay for itself. Meanwhile Eve has slowly expanded, handled some rough patches and bad decisions, and remained profitable.
I believe the PvP horse has been beaten to death, animated, and dusted. I'll look for any new points against it, but I will not engage the same points any more. Let me know if you tried to present a new point, and I will engage it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've found little on the current model that screams on how we will actually build our kingdoms or even a hut.Player-Created Buildings and Structures
I hope you find the link informative.
You can also check out Pathfinder Online - Community Information if you're interested.
Excellent response, N.
Side note: Again this shows the need for some aggressive communication from GW with regard to the information available, right now. And/Or perhaps re-organization of the information to make it more accessible to non-regulars.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Third, forced PVP. Forced PVP games are all fun on paper but they haven't been floating that well, even more on the Western community. I (sorta) know the EVE PVP model but I personally don't believe it will translate that well for a game that's selling point is trying to let us "be the Storyteller". Pwning n00bs exploring is hardly roleplaying and every breach you leave open will be exploited and will drive many crafters/roleplayers away. More options on how to play the game won't hurt it, let PVP'ers face each other, for as long as they want, but a pacifist flag will not hurt the product either.
What I'm more currious of is where you get the idea "Be the storyteller", you aren't the teller, you are a character in the story. I have heard dozens of in depth, deep stories in eve, major events, major wars, corporations rise, corps fall, etc... The concept is, the story revolves around the players, rather than the players are running through a story written by someone else. When the GM writes the content, the ending is inevitable. monsters attack city, monsters are defeated... The monsters were specifically made to be defeated, if this group failed, the next one would have certainly succeeded etc... There is no "will X be defeated", it is "who will be the first to defeat X". In addition X will always use the same tactics, same abilities etc... X won't change his game, won't make new allies etc... as that is more then the devs can accomplish, and players would consider it unfair when they get more powerful, yet find out that so did the enemy. When the enemy is another player however, it is all fair game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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On the whole topic of beta, or "crowdforging," the Early Enrollment/Open Enrollment early access: They have said that they hope to have a running game at that point, and that there will be no character wipe: The first people in will be creating a world for new players to interact with.
(Being one of those first people, not sure if I should just be a Sellsword, or try and run a settlement for similar people.)
Goblinworks Founder
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I (sorta) know the EVE PVP model but I personally don't believe it will translate that well for a game that's selling point is trying to let us "be the Storyteller".
My long-time experience with the EVE sandbox is the opposite of your observation. Player conquest of the outer (null sec) regions drives the player generated content and produces strong story lines by the players.
Rivalries are intense and conflict breeds story. Writers will tell you that without conflict a story is empty.
This is why PvP is critical to a sandbox game's success. Players create more robust and dynamic conflict than the developers would given their limited resources. Mindcraft is a good sandbox without PvP but remains storyless - a virtual lego environment (although still great low budget game software).
I've linked to a thread I drafted from an EVE PvP encounter that was just one story among many others during my time in EVE's player wars.
I'm not particularly fond of of PvP just for the sake of it, or for dominating other players with my twitch skills, but I really appreciate the creative intensity found in EVE's player wars. When you PvP in EVE's nullsec for the purpose of conquest or defending one's own territory, it carries some weight and meaning.
I think some folks envision the Pathfinder Online PvP to be as empty as the WoW battlegrounds. I believe it will an engaging, story-driven, story-generating activity that will capture our hearts.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This article is interesting broad discussion of why EvE produces 1) Emergent stories 2) Resounding player-interaction*
EVE Evolved: Sandboxes make the best stories
Sandbox MMO EVE Online has spawned some incredible tales and videos over its lifetime, with stories of political goings-on, wars, and record heists hitting the news every year without fail. EVE stories usually also appeal to many people who don't even play the game, an effect uncommon in other MMOs. It's not often that the in-game exploits of a themepark MMO guild will reach the media or generate the same level of interest as a big EVE story, so what is the magic sauce that makes stories from EVE so appealing?
- a tale of corporate infiltration, revenge, and theft that sounded like something out of a movie.
- The curators of EVE University, the owner of gambling industry SOMER.Blink, and the alliance leaders who built themselves up from nothing are all heroes to one player or another;
- In June 2010, EVE players banded together to repel Sansha invasions across high-security space. Though the event itself was organised and run by CCP Games, players practically took the story out of CCP's hands and ran with it.
I think the main reason EVE makes such real stories is the sandbox nature of the game and the complete lack of rules governing in-game interactions.
*Note: There are some philosophical and design differences between PfO and EvE.