Goblin Squad Member
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One of the weaknesses of sandbox game relaying on player crafting has to build the best equipment, in my opinion, has always been that you never end up with anything exceptional. In the end everyone always ends up with the same stuff, so you lose the stories told about mighty artifacts and people going to war to acquire them simply deny the enemy access to them. You also lose out on the hunt for such mighty artifacts lost to history.
That is kind of the trust of this post, allow players the ability to rarely craft truly exceptional items that could tip the balance in order to get players to fight and compete for possession of the item. There are other interesting consequences to the ideas I'm going to propose, but the general goal if to generate storytelling opportunities through extremely rare items.
I guess first we need player to be able to make these artifact items, so we can start there. Obviously to encourage conflict I want these artifacts to be exceptionally powerful and rare. To build an artifact you would need an exceptionally rare crafting component. Ideally these would be very rare drops in dungeons and possibly more valuable than an artifact that has been build because you could potentially make many different kinds of artifacts with it. If an adventuring company were to announce that they had acquired such a component and were looking to sell it people all factions would be sending thieves, assassins, mountains of money and everything else in their power to try and get this component. If the acquisition of this component became the main thrust player generated story on the server I would not be upset.
You then of course need to choose the right craftsman, but I think the whole crafting phase should probably be pretty straight forward, with the possibility of the craftsman customizing the artifact. You might want to balance the skill of your craftsman with trustworthiness. The better the craftsman, the better the artifact, but you want to be sure the craftsman will build the artifact you want built.
On to death, in particular, what happens to your loot when you die. As a proposal I would like to see some or all equipment that isn't acquired by the looter to end up in the possession of monsters, npc's, and dungeon loot piles in the area. This helps add something of a storied history to an area. A dungeon that lots of adventurers die in could have vast treasure hordes with an actual story to tell. This is relevant to artifacts because they are the kind of thing you want to stay in the world. Artifacts would always end up in the possession of another player, in a dungeon loot pile or wielded by some boss monster in a dungeon. Since it is very likely that people will be killed just to acquire artifacts they possess I propose giving players a limited time in which to loot a body during which the artifact is automatically acquired, after which it has a progressively large chance of being lost the longer it goes unrecovered. This adds to the artifacts lost to history and rediscovered aspect.
The little NPC's bit is slightly related to the death point, but also is somewhat tangential. I would like to see NPC's using player crafted gear. Obviously in the case of dead players losing gear this would mean some monsters running around in player gear. Large numbers of unlucky players could produce some very well equipped monsters. But this can also be extended economically. Craftsmen are likely to produce far more equipment than the player market is able to absorb. Some of this could go to equipping NPC guards and soldiers, other just might get dumped into merchants for cash. Either way it would be really cool to see NPC's running around wielding the custom designed gear of a prodigious craftsmen.
Also just for the purpose of promoting story, I think it would be cool if artifacts tracked the history of who owned them and what major events they were used in so that players can see the story and history behind them.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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How do you propose reconciling "there are only a few" such items with "these items add value to tens of thousands of players"?
I could see items which require resources which are extremely difficult to acquire, but not because they have a low drop rate from a respawning opponent. If the necessary materials come out of the deepest ruins and dungeons, and the most dangerous lairs, then they will eventually become available on the open market for some price. Once the materials are available for purchase, it's only a brief time before the finished goods have a price tag.
I think putting a price tag on the artifacts precludes the stories you want them to tell. The alternative is for 0.0% of the population to ever hold or directly interact with the "I win sword".
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Goblin Squad Member
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I personally prefer a low magic game world as it makes you appreciate if you get a +2 weapon. So personally I'd rather have magic items drops be limited to say items less than 10kgp value and everything else needs to be crafted, often with rare components.
Otherwise I like the idea of legacy type items that you can tailor and advance, or a skill/merit badge system that allows you to do something similiar. I would much prefer to have an item that grows with my character, rather than throwing items away for the next best thing.
Another way to make artifact type items would be if the crafter had to pay the equivalent of xp to make them. Instead of xp it could be a hit in skill training time. Imagine making a Staff of the Archmagi, and then not being able to skill train for months (or whatever is appropriate)! Players would then think very carefully about making such an item as it has a real meaningful cost to them, and it suddenly becomes extremely valuable to them and others.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Another way to make artifact type items would be if the crafter had to pay the equivalent of xp to make them. Instead of xp it could be a hit in skill training time. Imagine making a Staff of the Archmagi, and then not being able to skill train for months (or whatever is appropriate)! Players would then think very carefully about making such an item as it has a real meaningful cost to them, and it suddenly becomes extremely valuable to them and others.
Personally I really don't like ideas of this type at all, generally just winds up with tons of people making pure crafter alts, so they don't have to lose the training time on their main. Even players who want to be a pure crafter as their main would be unlikely to use it, but instead use an alt for ones that take the sacrifice anyway
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Goblin Squad Member
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My proposal was basically powerful player created magic item built for incredibly rare drops. And stuff that valuable doesn't leave the game and instead becomes dungeon loot if it would somehow become lost. You also label it so that players know that some other player actually made the loot they found.
I've very interested in conflict generation engines being put into the game. Give players a reason to fight other than fighting is fun so lets beat each other up. Especially if this can result in some unexpected conflicts. Having players fight over rare and powerful items is one way to accomplish this.
Rare resources that can only be harvested in a single hex, and allow the construction of equipment slightly better than what most people can build without is also a good way to encourage conflict. People will fight constantly for control of these resources. But that all is really a different topic as there are lots of other ideas attached to this one that have their own merit even without artifact items.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Where did you get the item that it wouldn't be landscape changing? How landscape changing is something that is subject to testing though.
I've talked about other things here, but the thrust of this thread was very rare items worth factions fighting over.
Ideally I see them generating a whole lot of conflict before they end up lost for a period of time. The someone recovers it from a dungeon and the conflict cycle starts all over again.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If they are landscape-changing, then nobody can fight over them- the outcome of the fight would be determined solely by how many "I-Win" items you have.
Depends largely on how long they last, when they are destroyed etc...
Dragons for one would fall into that category, but we also agree, that dragons got to die eventually, not allow one side to pile up and eventually have an army of said dragons.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You don't know much about strategy then do you?
The goal is to get said item out of enemy control. You send large numbers of guys to gang up on the artifact wielder, or you send a thief to steal it, or do something else clever.
Even then it is a balancing point that needs to be play tested so that such items are tip the balance enough to encourage conflict, but not so much as to hopelessly overwhelm the opposition.
And if you are rolling around with multiple I win items someone failed at balancing the system.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You don't know much about strategy then do you?
The goal is to get said item out of enemy control. You send large numbers of guys to gang up on the artifact wielder, or you send a thief to steal it, or do something else clever.
Even then it is a balancing point that needs to be play tested so that such items are tip the balance enough to encourage conflict, but not so much as to hopelessly overwhelm the opposition.
And if you are rolling around with multiple I win items someone failed at balancing the system.
Agreed, again it comes down to how many, and when they leave the system. 1-2 in the system at any time, no big deal. Items big enough, the strongest group will most likely get it, become stronger, at which point they have an edge to get the next, to get 2, etc... again this is solved more or less by them being destroyed before many hit the world, and limiting their power.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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If they are arbitrarily destroyed, then it's just random chance favoring one group over another for a period of time.
If the ways to destroy them are known, then they will never be destroyed except by a connection failure. They will simply never be used in such a manner as to be destroyable.
I'm on the record as opposing dragons as resources; if they are equally (un)available to everyone, they don't fall into the scope of something which nobody has a chance to experience.
The final word is that because developer time is finite, every new feature that is included comes at the opportunity cost of a feature that takes the same amount of time to design, balance, code, and test. I can think of several dozen things that should come before 'features that almost literally nobody will ever experience' are implemented.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If they are arbitrarily destroyed, then it's just random chance favoring one group over another for a period of time.
I never once said arbitrarally destroyed. Just like players, every time a dragon goes into combat, it could be killed. Just like weapons and everything else, if you are bringing it into the battlefield, it can be destroyed or stolen. As long as the artifact dosn't grant imortality, or the ability to retreat at the first sign of risk, it will be destroyed, non-arbitrarally.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think you miss understand the intent. The feature was never the Artifacts. The feature was the conflict generated. Conflict generation, conflict with a purpose beyond people simply want to fight for fun will be essential to keeping the game alive.
Giving people good reasons to fight also could potentially cut back on griefing.
Maybe I should just make a thread about conflict and story generation engines as a concept.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Hark, PFO may not experience the problem you're concerned about because of Ryan's plans to provide a variety of ways that you can specialize your character. I may be misreading it, or reading too much into it, but I get the impression that different weapons (and other gear) will be geared towards specific functions, so that you don't end up with "the best sword" or "the best bow", etc.
From Goblinworks Blog: A Three-Headed Hydra:
A character optimized for fighting aberrations, undead, fey and other sorts of "monsters" might not be very effective at fighting player characters. A solider that is optimized to fight coherently in a unit might not be very good in a 1:1 encounter.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm perfectly fine with a normal balance of equipment.
What I'm suggesting here is equipment that is specifically rare and controlled and unbalanced to generate conflict. Let someone get away with using it to much and things start driving in their favor. The idea is to make it so that people go out of their way to stop some from using this equipment against them, or simply to get it for their own use.
Ideally it would be balanced such that it changed hands several times and then was lost. It disappears for a period of time, and then shows up again in the treasure horde of a dungeon or in the possession of some boss monster starting the cycle again.
The whole point is to keep the balance of power unbalanced so that it generates player conflict naturally. It disappears into obscurity for a while to give players time to recover and prevent any group from gaining to much momentum in a conflict.
I think such items should probably be considered property of the game world and not a player. As such they should be easier to take from the owner than normal equipment. Thieves can steal it, enemies loot it. Bank accounts robbed. Mysteriously disappearing from possession if someone tries to store it for an extended period of time. If a player gives it to an alt and then never again logs in with the alt it will eventually disappear from the alts inventory and go back into dungeon circulation.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Personally I think that this form of "conflict generation" will cause unnecessary damage to the community. In the MMO world over-powered/ crazy rare items only seem to cause jealousy and hate, shortly followed by massive complaints on the forums and in-game. Guilds break-up, alliances dissolve, and the economy suffers.
MMO's do not benefit from a group of friends sitting around the table working toward a common goal all while under the control of an actual GM, and even in the RPG world one player with an over-powered item/ build can ruin the game play for others.
The same kind of situation can be applied by using less community destructive methods. The Tarasque would be a perfect example and would actually cause a galvanizing effect on the community. Good groups tring to "save the world" would end up working with evil groups out for loot or fame, ect. It is a cyclic world changing/ destroying monster. No one wins if its left unchecked.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You see I am trying to encourage PVP conflict that actually makes sense. MMO PVP has always bothered me because there is never a reason for it beyond "PVP is fun." I personally think that PVP for no reason is terrible. I need a real motivation for why I'm fighting.
Edit: also I'm reasonably confident that no MMO has ever done what I suggested. Most MMO's focus on the players retaining their equipment, and nobody else can use it ever. What I'm suggesting allows for players to take it for themselves if they are jealous or whatever. Overpowered stuff unitentionally unbalances things and there is nothing to correct that until it's stats are fixed. What I suggest would result in the balance shifting back and forth keeping the balance from tipping to far in one direction.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Really not sure I like this idea. Sounds nice in theory, but for the guy that spends let's say millions of gold, obtains the component, carefully selects a crafter to make and customize just the item he wants...to just lose it the next time he dies (then see it in the hand of someone else who got a lucky gank)? That would be rage-quit worthy right there.
This idea falls in line with the alpha class discussion, it's tons of fun if you have it, but causes waves of frustration for people who don't. In the end, you hurt more people than you help.
Also this. Couldn't have said it better.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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So, that would be a random power boost given out in order that there might be random power boosts?
That's like giving $1000 to the first player to land on free parking; it reduces the meaning of player's decisions and makes the game more about who benefits from the random effect than what the players do.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What I'm suggesting here is equipment that is specifically rare and controlled and unbalanced to generate conflict.
I understand now. I used to play ArcticMUD and there were extremely powerful staffs, but only three could be in existence at the same time. Is that kind of what you're talking about?
I have no idea how Ryan would respond to that, but it doesn't sound like an obviously horrible idea to me, as long as the power it grants is not overwhelming.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just in general I'd like to see crafters be able to make some cool stuff, with the right components. Mid-level compared to the artifacts you're proposing.
I'd just like to, say, make a cool sword, and name it, maybe describe it, then have my name on the bottom. Stuff like that, for exceptional weapons and armor. Hopefully they'll be a nice list of abilities we can assign to weapons and armor, just like in the rulebooks.
