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Dingo, this is an honest question: Do you think the attributes that make a strong female character differ from the ones that would make strong male character?
It's been said before in this very thread, but if you're trying to create a engaging character, you're much better off thinking about the qualities of the individual rather than a list of character tropes from the internet.
Most differences will be imposed by society defining the role of the strong character and separating the roles of female from male.
There will be subtle differences that distinguish men from women that are actually about the individual and not society and our need to impose an acceptable code of conduct.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Actually Buffy is a good example of being independent from her Watchers. More than once she turned her back on the council, and on her friends.
Buffy is powerful individually, she's more powerful with back up. That's true of all the Slayers. She's just the first (we know of) to recognize it.
To go back to Ripley being written as a man, she may have been written that way, but she's not a man. (baby!) She's a strong female, but a male would likely have approached (and been encouraged to) the role differently. In Aliens, it's a mix of experience and maternal instinct that drives the character. Especially in the larger context of Ripley losing her daughter (to time) and finding Newt.
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To go back to Ripley being written as a man, she may have been written that way, but she's not a man. (baby!) She's a strong female, but a male would likely have approached (and been encouraged to) the role differently. In Aliens, it's a mix of experience and maternal instinct that drives the character. Especially in the larger context of Ripley losing her daughter (to time) and finding Newt.
Obviously, once she was cast as female in the first movie, it changed how they wrote about her in the others. But it doesn't change the fact that in Alien, the dialogue and reactions that people had no problem seeing as plausible for a woman were originally intended to come from a man.
Write a good character. Unless your story is specifically about fatherhood/motherhood, women in an oppressive society/men in a male-only enclave, etc., write a person first, a woman or man second.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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That may work better for a movie than a written work, since the actual presence of the actor shapes the role as well. While the role was written for a man, obviously it was played by a woman and the director took that into account while filming. Often the original script bears little resemblance to the final movie. I don't know how closely Alien followed the original script. The basic plot and characterization probably didn't change much, but much of the subtleties probably did.
With a novel, everything has to be in the written form. I doubt many good books would work as well if you just changed the character's name and switched the pronouns. :)
If I remember correctly, that was part of the reason Mercedes Lackey wrote Tarma and Kethry the way she did. To specifically make female heroes that didn't emulate the attitudes (and the appetites) of Conan.
I think it was in the prelude of the Oathbound book that had all the short stories.
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What YellowDingo is focused on is not really so much the hero but the Anti-Hero, he's looking in essence not for a Wonder Woman, but a female Wolverine.
Not really - I'm looking to distinguish between the needs of society to impose expectations on strong female characters and the characteristics that define the strong female character as an individual. There is an actual difference but for some reason everyone thinks being connected to (and dependent on) society is a vital aspect of 'strength' of the character.
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That's because someone totally indifferent to bonds with other humans is a sociopath, not a hero(ine).
Just throwing my own cents, foolish america why u no follow canada and get rid of penny, into the ring.
If you want to write a strong heroine, don't just write a strong character and incidentally have them be female. Especially if you're a guy. Same goes for women writing men. People tend to write their own worldview, it's what you've got after all, and sex/gender is a big part of that. If you don't focus on what makes a character different from your baseline, all you end up with is that baseline with a different name. Hence the all of the females which are actually men, or a man's perspective of women, and vice versa. Which I feel to be a disservice to all. Men and women really are different, may my flesh not be seared by flamewars for saying that, and characters should reflect that.
Best thing for writing a strong heroine, or any character really, find someone person who has those traits and learn what they do/would do and why. If you build traits into characters from the beginning, it helps them become more real. So start with one of the most fundamental things of all, gender, and go from there.
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I saw that James Joyce, when he wrote Ulysses, chose the mythical protagonist because, he felt, alone among all other literary figures, he was a complete man. By this, he meant that all the roles Odysseus had, all that a man could aspire to, were important to him and the story he figured in. He was the king of Ithaca, the husband of Penelope, the father of Telemachos, a warrior, a friend of Achilles, an advisor to another king. A strong woman, then, would get issues at this point. Being a queen is not the same as being a king. In choosing her role in this aspect, you would have to write her as a king, thereby making her "less female", or you would write her as a queen, thereby making her less powerful. I don't necessarily see this as insurmountable, having seen it done very well, but it is certainly not as simple as writing a strong person and have her happen to be female. Our collective views of what makes a strong person are in no way gender-neutral, so you need to deal with that. Literature and the things people find they respond most easily to remains an obstacle at some level.
I am sure I will call down flak for this, but a good example is two people in more or less the same situation: Picard and Janeway. They have ultimate authority on their ships, they are shown to be more or less completely positive individuals... and yet their roles are clearly different. Compared to Picard, Janeway is written as far more emotionally invested in her crew, often talking to others about how they feel, looking out into space and thinking about her subordinates and their respective troubles. Picard is the teacher and mentor of the crew. My point here is merely the differences in how they are written, and Janeway wasn't written in the dark ages of misogyny. I think she IS a strong woman, but reconciling femininity with power/strength at the very least requires a strategy.
Regarding Ripley: She begins her journey as a somewhat competent leader, who is then clearly set as a victim through the first movie and much of the second. She kills the creature as a byproduct of her flight. She has to be forced by Drake to accompany the marines to the colony. It's not until she chooses to save Newt that she adopts the heroic mantle and becomes a badass. She grows strong as an expression of motherhood. Another woman, Vasquez, has completely adopted a male persona, out-machoing even the male marines, and dies a very male death in combat, sacrificing herself to buy time for others.
Another relevant character is, I feel, Lightning from Final Fantasy XIII. She is clearly a woman, written as such, and often brought up as an example of a good female character. Note, however, that unlike most other FF heroes, she doesn't have a romantic storyline. Is it then necessary, or easier, just to ignore romance when writing female characters? Does romance make women weak in literature? Again, I have seen many examples where it isn't, but the thought seems to me to be there.
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Another relevant character is, I feel, Lightning from Final Fantasy XIII. She is clearly a woman, written as such, and often brought up as an example of a good female character. Note, however, that unlike most other FF heroes, she doesn't have a romantic storyline. Is it then necessary, or easier, just to ignore romance when writing female characters? Does romance make women weak in literature? Again, I have seen many examples where it isn't, but the thought seems to me to be there.
I think the thing about romance that makes its absense seem to correspond with strong female characters is that it's all too often used as a substitute for actual characterization. That is, when their romantic relationships(most often with men*) play more of a part in defining them than they should. It might be similar to the ideas behind the Bechdel Test.
And from there it's easy to fall into the trap of thinking simply avoiding romance makes a strong female character, or that romance has to be avoided to make one, and that's going too far in the other direction. If they can stand on their own strengths(and flaws) outside romantic involvment, they should probably be good to go with or without it.
Then again, there have been strong female characters that have been weakened by bad romanctic plots, but those are most often due to bad and shoehorning characterization rather than romance itself. See "Ukefication" for one form of how this also applies to male characters. Basically any form of character derailment for the sake of the romantic plotline(or any other plotline really), is the enemy of strong characterization.
*Along with the Bechdel Test theory again, defining a woman primarily through her relationships with men isn't typically a good start for a strong character**, but that also doesn't mean that those relationships(in whatever form they may be) must be avoided like the plague, because that easily leads to another form of shallow characterization.
**No seriously, @#$% Metroid: Other M.
edit-Thinking of strong female characters and romance and video games again, take the Mass Effect series for example.
The first game had three characters heavily built up as romantic possibilities for the player character. But the two characters that the fanbase seemed to want most and generally found more interesting seemed to be two characters that initially weren't written that way. The most common complaints about the other three tended to be that they were fairly boring(at least in their first game).
edit2-And damn this obsessive need to cover every base, but in case any of that above still comes across as an endorsement of an absolute approach, in one direction or the other, it isn't. There aren't really absolute rules for what makes a strong character, because people come in all sorts, and if a character is strong the reader will see them as a person rather than a collection of tropes slapped together. The peaceful but steel-willed farmer's wife can be a strong character. The amazon barbarian can be a strong character. The daddy's girl military brat can be a strong character. The nun that solves mysteries can be a strong character. There aren't hard set rules on who can and can't be a strong female character. The alcoholic disgraced detective can be a strong female character.*** It's all in the characters themselves and how they're executed.
*** @#$% the DC Comics reboot too, btw.
Being a queen is not the same as being a king. In choosing her role in this aspect, you would have to write her as a king, thereby making her "less female", or you would write her as a queen, thereby making her less powerful.
I kind of have to dispute this. Even in the real world there were Queens who were just as powerful (if not moreso in some cases) than any King.
First, I don't dispute that. I am talking about the literary expectations people have. Then again, the powerful queens that have existed have typically been widows, unmarried, or married to very weak men.
And crap you Bioware for not making a Samara makeout possible. :(
Kirk WAS written in the dark ages of misogyny.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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That's because someone totally indifferent to bonds with other humans is a sociopath, not a hero(ine).How could you say that about
- Wolverine
- Master Chief
- Conan
- etc..
</tongue in cheek>
Amusingly that's one of the goals of Liu's writing on the (too) short lived X-23 book. Defining Laura as more than 'female Wolverine'. It interested me because it was also the character discovering she's more than a Wolverine clone (literally).
Just throwing my own cents, foolish america why u no follow canada and get rid of penny, into the ring.
If you want to write a strong heroine, don't just write a strong character and incidentally have them be female. Especially if you're a guy. Same goes for women writing men. People tend to write their own worldview, it's what you've got after all, and sex/gender is a big part of that. If you don't focus on what makes a character different from your baseline, all you end up with is that baseline with a different name. Hence the all of the females which are actually men, or a man's perspective of women, and vice versa. Which I feel to be a disservice to all. Men and women really are different, may my flesh not be seared by flamewars for saying that, and characters should reflect that.
Best thing for writing a strong heroine, or any character really, find someone person who has those traits and learn what they do/would do and why. If you build traits into characters from the beginning, it helps them become more real. So start with one of the most fundamental things of all, gender, and go from there.
Except that the vast majority of the books that have shaped how a novel is written have been written by men. The female characters in those books were written by men. So what's "normal" for both male and female characters was defined by men. Some university did an exercise where they had first-person narratives written by men and women without identifying whether the character was female or male, and had people guess which characters were supposed to be male and which were supposed to be female, and they were more likely to guess that female characters written by women were male, whereas the female characters written by men they could clearly identify as female.
The point being, our internal narratives don't sound that different from your internal narratives, but when men put words in our mouths and actions in our hands, if anything, they over-feminize them. Therefore, if you're a man and writing a female character, just write a person. If you need, for some reason (cultural or plot-wise or whatever), to have her do or think some stuff that a man wouldn't or couldn't do or think (e.g. bear a child), unless that's the entire focus of her character arc, add it later. Write a human first.
Backing up Jessica here, when you're writing a character, you don't want any stereotypes to apply to said character. Some of those stereotypes will be gender based, but the source of weak characterization is secondary to accomplishing strong characterization.
At some point we should probably have the semantics discussion about the difference between a strong character (the Hulk) and strong characterization (anyone from Six Feet Under).
I don't have the wherewithal to find it on the interwebz, or even know if it's there to be found, but Samuel R. Delany has an essay on the Alyx the Adventuress stories by Joanna Russ in The Jewel-Hinged Jaw that relates to much of we're talking about here. Yes, that was a run-on sentence.
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If I might add one thing to your post, Jessica.
Even when a book is written by a man about a woman, he's writing how he perceives women. Both positive and negative. I wouldn't say there was anything intentional about it.
Also look at Henry Kutter and his wife. Despite (obviously) being make and female, people can't tell where one ended and the other began in their writings.
Amusingly in reading playing online, men playing female characters are fairly easy to spot, either because their descriptions focus on, um, attributes that are more appealing to men or they get them horribly wrong. (38BB bra anyone?). Or their characterizations give them away. It's a rare bird who can play a woman well enough to fool a real woman.
Totally -- I know that the way men portray women, and the intentionality thereof, is dependent on the man, and none of this is to say that some male authors don't write women very well. :-)
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OK lets look at the first Short fiction I ever wrote. Consider the female characters...
[i]ROWAN'S WEEKEND
Rowan stalked the night-shrouded street with a new purpose. The black eye he had gained in a tavern brawl earlier in the evening was still causing him pain.
“Never again...” The hangover from his night of indulgence was entering one of the painful stages. Rowan crushed his eye as he moved to hold his aching head giving a yelp of the pain in the process. How many tankards had he put back? He couldn't remember. The pain was terrible. He remembered how many.
The assassin on the roof across the street fired his crossbow. Rowan stumbled drunkenly and fell to his Knees. The thug in the alleyway was not expecting to be struck in the heart by a crossbow bolt, the assassin, maneuvering on the icy roof shingles for that second shot, slid at the worst possible moment taking a quarrel in the chest. As both corpses ate gravel, Rowan surged up and staggered onward in to the dark.
“Bloody drunks, Can't hold their liquor...”
Rowan stumbled into another tavern, stepping over the various unconscious patrons lying in the doorway. His cry for more of the stronger stuff and a quick accusation that the rest was watered dog piss revitalized a group of brawling tavern-goers. Rowan's tavern crawl ended in the early hours of the morning after extended visits to six more taverns and a number of fatally bungled mugging attempts. The locals were showing a severe lack of ability in holding their drink.
The Sun was just rising as Rowan stumbled in through the open doorway of an old wooden structure that seemed a bit different from the rest of this termite riddled shantytown. Mrs Ketlan's boarding house was a flyspeck of purity in the western quarter of a cesspool of a city. Mrs Ketlan was a stalwart, swarthy, raven-haired wench in her mid forties. So she wasn't one of the best looking women in the city let alone the cosmos. Actually she was close to demonically ugly however, in his pissed state Rowan felt like committing suicide and gave her behind a quick slap of approval. The meat cleaver spun swiftly from her hand as Rowan dove for the safe side of the hallway. The thug hiding in the shadows across the street checked twice to be sure that his vitals were intact. The large cleaver had shaved hair from his inner thigh. Guthrie the knife dropped his crossbow and vowed to leave the city. He couldn't take this kind of stress any more. At the height of his reform a pair of muggers jumped him. They stole his crossbow.
Mrs Ketlan cornered rowan in the stairway.
“Now where in the bloody hell have you been my boy? Out at some orgy no doubt, and you're drunk.” She gave him a clip behind the ear.
“Bloody Sorcerers... never should be allowed in the city. Cause nothing but trouble.” Rowan was a little hard of hearing as he stumbled up the stairs, fumbled with the lock and fell through the doorway into his room.
Rowan had no realistic idea of how long he had slept but the sun was casting the usual red pigment to the air so he assumed it was evening. Odd thing was that it made the room look cleaner.
“This isn't my bloody room!” He was right. The door slammed open and there, shrouded in a veil of light stood Janna Murell, light glistening of her raven hair and naked tattoo covered body. This defiantly complimented the blood dripping from her hands and mouth. How flamboyant of her.
“Rowan. You once said you loved me.” Her hair cascaded across her shoulders with a life of its own.
“Rowan,” her voice took a colder tone. Every chunk of ice within a hundred leagues felt a severe desire for a warm blanket and a cup of hot tea.
“If you truly love me, then join me and fight for the dark mage. If not, you can die.” A sudden chill ran down Rowan's spine. He suddenly realized that he was as naked as the lady in front of him. He lifted the blanket from the bed and cloaked himself in it.
It’s like this Janna. No chance.' Rowan threw himself out the second storey window. The glass panes exploded into a thousand shards. Rowan fell to the street in a cloud of debris shattering his left arm as ie hit ground.
As he struggled to his feet, Janna emerged onto the street.
“Thus you have made your choice Rowan, and thus you must die.” Her hair swirled and waved with energy. She lifted her hands and the world around them fell apart. A shadow fiend stepped from the darkest recesses of the street. Deciding that he had one course of action, Rowan rushed Janna.
“Kill him!” Rowan struck with speed and strength. The swift blow to her head and she collapsed to the ground. The shadow continued to advance.
“Oh s&#@! I'm going to die.” Rowan plunged down an insignificant lane only to find it was a dead end. He lost all grip on reality as the fiend advanced down the alleyway in pursuit. The only thought on this creature's mind was food. Rowan unleashed with a volley of magic.
The volley resulted in a flash of light and a loud bang.
For some reason Rowan was now sitting in a pool of muddy water, covered in the incinerated remains of what had been a blanket.
Rowan struggled to his feet, only to notice that he was under the watchful scrutiny of two well-attired young ladies of the upper classes.
The first fainted while the second screamed.
“Guards!” Four tall professionals emerged from the house with their weapons drawn. The young lady on the ground roused momentarily by the summons glimpsed once again at the rag-covered form that was Rowan and fainted.
“Oh do stop that Elanora, we know you do it for the attention.”
Elanora lifted her head from the ground and gave her sister a sour look of disappointment. She struggled to stand in her heavy dress, brushing furiously at a stain.
“If you ladles don't mind, I think it might be appropriate to acquire some clothing.” Rowan was struggling to maintain his modesty behind a shrub of poor foliage. His arm was hurting again. The lady in authority nodded to a guard who quickly retreated to the house.
“Are you some rogue who ravages young maidens?” Elanora's line of enquiry earned the young woman a quick flick to her ear, which caused her to yelp in pain.
“Ouch! Cassandra, what did you do that for?” Cassandra pointed at the house and Elanora, after a last inspection of Rowan's partially concealed form, complied with instructions.
The guard returned with an off white robe which he handed to Cassandra. It took a while for Rowan to convince the lady present to look in another direction as he shed the rags he was covered in and pulled on the robe. Partially satisfied, Cassandra shifted into interrogation mode.
“All right, now just who are you and what were you doing on these premises in such an ill clad manor?” Rowan drew up a quick excuse of semi plausibility and then boldly lied.
“Well there I was, just minding my own business when boom, the building explodes and wham, there I is sitting shocked by the experience and totally naked in the dirt as it were. It came as a complete surprise.”
The shadow struggled to move as the light dissipated into the evening. The fiend looked about for its prey. Gone. It examined the wall and jerked back. The light from a burning torch gave it pain. Prey was there. Others were there too. The fiend focused on the wall and slowly pushed through the gaps in the mortar, exiting into the garden, Rowan cried a warning.
“Run for your lives!” The crowd broke for the house but the fiend was already upon them rending and tearing it the guards as though they had the consistency of smoke. Light and fire burst forth from Rowan's hands and the shadow fell away into the nothingness as light hammered at it. The sky, the very air had exploded with the fury of a sun, lighting up the city. Cassandra's lily-white skin had emerged from the exchange with a full body tan that reached beyond the dense layers of her gown. She struggled to climb to her feet as Rowan moved to provide her with some assistance.
“My apologies, spur of the moment action. Hope you are not injured.” Cassandra fainted.
Cassandra woke with a sudden feeling of shock. She touched her singed hair. Then she noticed Rowan, his broken arm had been set and strapped.
“You! Wizard.” Cassandra gritted her teeth and struck Rowan's arm with a forceful blow, which caused him to wail with pain.
“And stop whining you pathetic excuse for a magician. You have brought death and destruction to this Household.”
Cassandra stumbled. The evening's combat had burnt the heels from her boots.
“My boots! You destroyed MY BOOTS! You wheezily little excuse for a man, no one stuffs about with the Winterdors. Do you understand me?” Her yell was a tyrannical screech. Elanora who had just entered the room, halted in stunned silence. Rowan revealed a face of twisted pain. Elanora fled the room before she was discovered.
It was a while before the noise of conflict vanished from the guest bedroom and Elanora, curious as to the reason behind the peace, penetrated the silent room. Cassandra was sitting on the bed, holding a glowing rose. She was smiling. The wizard was nowhere to be found.
“He's a wonderful wizard. Gave me this, kissed me, and flew away. Wonderful; Did I tell you that?” Outside, the sound of something heavy falling from a great height followed by a flurry of harsh words echoed towards the window.
Cassandra sighed, got up from the bed and walked out the door with the rose. Elanora rushed to the window and looked out at the night-shrouded grounds. Rowan crawled out of a destroyed hedge and returned to owl form, flying on into the night.
“Aw, how come I miss out on the nice ones? And he's a wizard. It isn't fair.” Greatly disappointed, Elanora slammed the shutters closed and left the room in a sulk.
Rowan shifted into human form as he reached the alleyway behind the Red Griffon tavern. This spooked a couple of muggers who ran out into the street. A squad of the city watch, a pack of thugs and murderers themselves, fell upon the duo. The skirmish finished quickly as the watch exited the dispute with a hand full of silver, several pair of boots and some above average clothing. The muggers didn't complain as a stray mongrel chose to believe itself upon their persons. The watch moved on. Rowan entered through the side door. The roof was low and the taproom was thick with a smoke that made Rowan's eyes water with pain. As taverns went, this crowd was the vilest pack of vermin he had the misfortune to meet. A tall fellow in a corner was speaking.
“Bernardo, Tonight's brew is the best I've tasted in months. What happened? You steal it from the rich quarter?” An ugly brute behind the bar spoke out across the gloom.
“No. Last night I got drunk and pissed in the barrel.” A number of patrons moaned like sick drunks.
“Well, it certainly improved the flavour.” The Fellow in the corner took another drink of his mug. Others laughed and drank up.
Rowan strolled to the bar and slapped a gold mark on the counter. That would get him the good stuff until he couldn't drink without it being poured down his throat by the pink rabbit that stalked the edge of every drunk's mind. The large mug of ale he was handed was busy going through some unknown chemical reaction. Unidentifiable chunks were surfacing and sticking to the edge. One chunk in particular had sprouted legs and was attempting to climb out. Rowan took a long hard drink and slipped off his bench seat. Strong Brew. He drank what was left, sifting fungus between his teeth as he went.
“So Bernardo! How are you on this droll evening?” He quickly looked at the pink bunny that laughed at him from the corner of the room. Big Bastard. Someone will get you yet.
“Fine Noble Sire.” Bernardo dropped into a whisper. “Janna was in earlier. Looking for you, she was.”
“Ah. Thought she might. I'd best be on the lookout for her and her associates.” Rowan glanced about the taproom with suspicion. There in the haze filled corner a stranger in heavy black robes appeared to be looking in the direction of the bar.
“Yes. That one showed up just after Janna left. me thinks he is watching for you my friend.' Bernardo poured ale and passed it to Rowan.
“Take a look at his face.” Rowan reached into his robe and touched the amulet about his neck. It was warm to the touch. He concentrated on the stranger in the corner.
“Now, what did you see?” Rowan looked into Bernardo's face.
“A red star reflected back from his left eye.” Bernardo had a look of concern on his face.
“Well, that's it then. I think he knows I'm here, time to spring the trap.” Rowan started to climb off his seat.
“His trap or yours, my friend? The stranger also moves.” The stranger stood up from his table.
“Why Bernardo, Mine of course. Now you might want to take cover for this will get very messy, very quickly. And pass me that dagger of yours.” Rowan concealed the weapon against his wrist. He eyed Bernardo and turned to face the taproom.
“Are you ready my friend?” A quick gaze about the room was all it took. The patrons knew something was afoot. Hands edged towards weapons. Tension thickened as Rowan drew up to a full height. The cloaked one looked about the room. He too was aware of the danger of a wrong move. Warily he pulled a charred black staff from the shadows of his robes and headed for the tavern door.
The shadowy one paused at the door and hurled a ball of fire towards the bar. There was a disturbance as patrons in the path dived from their upturned tables. Rowan held out his left hand and gestured. The ball of fire never reached him. Instead it became a small marble of light, glowing as it sailed the remaining distance to his open hand. The shadow mage paled. Things were not working, as they should have. Rowan smiled and the mage whacked out the tavern door and exited into the street. Rowan flicked the small sphere towards the door and it flew after the fleeing mage.
“Amateurs; they’re sending amateurs after me. I feel insulted.” Rowan snorted into his ale as the sound of a loud explosion and a scream of primal agony echoed in from the street. The patrons had righted their tables and the merriment continued into the night.
Rowan finished his second ale, bid his friends farewell, and staggered out into the street. He narrowly sidestepped the smouldering remains of the cloaked mage and his pink bunny companion.
“Told you so you pink bastard.” He indecisively took a deep breath and felt sick from the foul stench in the air. Rowan hurried down the narrow street.
It was difficult to pin down the sensation he was feeling. Rowan looked
back up the road. Something was wrong.
Must have been too much water in the ale. Rowan did an about face to retrace his steps. The street he had walked down moments ago was now a small, dark curio shop. A nasty thought dropped into Rowan's mind.
Oh s!&$! I've entered the shadow guild quarter. The Dark mage will get me for sure. A noise. Movement. I'm a dead man now. It was Janna. With her stood the Dark Mage. He was smiling, good.
“You were a fool to fall for such a simple illusion. For shame! I so expected more from you but then, the Talon have always proven easy to dominate.” Shan grasped Janna by the throat and licked the side of her face.
“It took so little to turn her, to break her, to set her free. In the end she begged to be mine.” Shan smiled at her nakedness. She smiled at Rowan. Rowan drew himself up.
“Even here I have the power to take you dark one. Arrogant are you to think that I should enter this place unprepared.”
One bluff. Better make it a good one. The dark one ceased to smile. Wish I had Bernardo's blade with me. No matter.
“You were observed since you entered the tavern. You took no preparations.” Shan felt surer of himself.
“Not all actions are observable. Now, when you feel up to it, let's get it on.” Rowan spat at Shan's boots. The dirt exploded in fire as the gob of spittle landed slightly short. The dark mage took a step back and the shadows at the edge of the street wavered.
“Illusions!” Janna laughed. “Such foolishness will not save you.” Rowan stepped forward and Janna retreated behind Shan.
“The end has come for you, Rowan. Even now I weave the path of predators.” Rowan could feel the magical energy around him, through him, twisting the fabric of reality, re-weaving all that is into that which must not be.
“You fool Shan! Not even old Thrain himself would weave this pattern into the fabric.” There was much energy in the weaving. Shan had added his life force to the weave.
“Thrain is an old man and I choose to reach beyond his weaknesses.” Shan continued the focusing of his spell. Shadows darkened the sky.
Rowan watched in horror as the form of great wolves wove them selves from the nothingness.
Janna came at him with a knife. Rowan sidestepped the attack and snatched the weapon from her hand.
Janna was thrown off balance and landed face down in the dirt. Rowan struck her across the back of the head and she went limp. The weaving was almost complete.
One chance. The throw was good as the blade gouged the dark mage across the cheek. It had been enough. The pain broke his focus and he screamed. His body erupted in an inferno of energy. There was nothing left to hit the ground. The problem became obvious. The wolves were still forming. The city was alight. What to do? Janna woke.
“What has happened?” She spotted the wolves. Her mind went wild with the terror of the moment.
“There is no time to explain. I must form the barrier tree before the wolves are loosed upon this reality. You must complete the final weaving.” A brew-house exploded somewhere on the far side of the city. He passed Janna his cloak.
“You might need this. Now we begin.” Rowan focused on the necessary weaving of thought.
“Goodbye Rowan.” Janna focused in on his way of thought and he was no more. In his place stood a young sapling of some wood that was more real than any tree known. The wolves howled in pain and began to dissipate, the shadows in the sky fell away to reveal the stars and the moon.
Janna looked at her naked, tattooed form and smiled. A group of peasants fleeing the inferno of the trader's quarter hurried past. Janna grabbed one by the throat.
“Where are you going?” Her inquiry was more of a threat than a question. The sub human struggled in her grasp.
“We're fleeing the city on account of the fire.” Janna took stock of the situation.
“No you're not! You and you're little friends will Fill some buckets with water and go find some burning building to throw it on or I will feed you to my pet Fiend. Do we have an understanding?” The peasant struggled to say yes as the grip on his neck tightened and she lifted him off the ground. His friends trembled in fear at her strength.
The first volunteers departed to find as many buckets as possible. Janna stared at the tree that was once Rowan.
“You men! Always fighting to see who gets to be the big dog. Never realizing that the b@&%# in the den is the real ruler of the pack.” Janna smiled at the memory of Shan.
I never begged for that which would be mine. Janna focused on the tree.
“And if you think that fool Thrain will oppose me, I had him by for lunch.” Janna whetted her bloodstained lips and kissed a leaf on the tree depositing a red mark.
The palace was probably a nice place to rest. Queen Janna. Has a nice ring to it. I can give it a try for a Few centuries to see how it feels. Queen Janna became an owl and flew towards the palace.
[i]
OK lets look at the first Short fiction I ever wrote. Consider the female characters...
Given that I've had to tell my close friends I can't keep reading and critiquing their fiction for free, I can't do it for random people on the internet, either. Sorry.
Are you sure? It's pretty f#+%ing awesome!!
I suggest just reading every other sentence.
Quite.
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I wrote some Harry Potter/Firefly crossover fanfic; if anybody's interested.
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I absolutely think that a strong female character is going to be in part defined by her relationship to men. Hopefully no one is saying "just take a heroic character and make her female" or "be gender blind".
The things that might define a great heroine in any time are going to make us like her, admire her, want her or weep for her. So her femininity is going to be intrinsic to any of those. How are her maternal instincts? If she doesn't have any, why?
Take Brienne from Game of Thrones (admittedly, I haven't seen her developed a lot since I've only finished the second book) - she is memorable, valiant, and loyal. She's homely. She's motivated by love for the king she swears fealty to, and broken when he dies in front of her. She's a good character, not a cheaply constructed babe-in-chain shirt (I'm not saying that can't be a good heroine). She's also COMPLETELY defined by her relationship to males. Even when she's only around Cate Stark, she's still defined by Renly's death, hoping to get revenge for her lost love and failed station.
In Dragonlance, Crysania is a great picture: she's in love with Raistlin's sympathy for the weak, for his sense of justice. Raistlin's an evil mofo, but Crysania doesn't see that. She sees a spark of good in him, and bringing that out might undo his wickedness and save the world from evil. She doesn't judge him with a broadsword and give her life trying to kill off the bad guy. She has a hopeless romantic connection and bets it all on that spark. Her heroism is inseparable from her romantic notions.
It's silly to say you can't define a heroine by her rekationship to males. In many ways, male characters are defined by their relationship to females. A man fights fiercely to avenge a lost love. A good man is weak to carnal temptation. A man forgets what;s most important because he thinks of himself as a warrior or provider. WHat's Braveheart without defining Wallace according to his relation to his women loves? What are they without him? When the Earl of Bruce makes his commitment to Wallace, pledging not to be on the wrong side again, what does he give him? His wife's favor.
A great woman heroine should have the attributes that make us care about great heroes: courage, valor, loss. And she should also be a woman.
About 50 grams a pop.
It's silly to say you can't define a heroine by her rekationship to males. In many ways, male characters are defined by their relationship to females. A man fights fiercely to avenge a lost love. A good man is weak to carnal temptation. A man forgets what;s most important because he thinks of himself as a warrior or provider. WHat's Braveheart without defining Wallace according to his relation to his women loves? What are they without him? When the Earl of Bruce makes his...
What we're saying is that female characters should no more be defined by their relationships to male characters than vice versa. There are plenty of male characters that go through entire books/movies/whatever without romance being part of it -- or with the romance being a minor detail -- and the same should be possible for female characters.
That's not silly; that's fairness. I love my boyfriend dearly, but if you asked me what makes me me, what's the thing I spend the most time thinking about, where does most of my effort go, etc., my relationship with him would be in my top 10, but it wouldn't be #1. The same is true for many women. But most fiction treats female characters as if their romantic relationships must always be the #1 priority for them. The same is not true of male characters, and it's not an accurate portrayal for many women.
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It's silly to say you can't define a heroine by her rekationship to males. In many ways, male characters are defined by their relationship to females. A man fights fiercely to avenge a lost love. A good man is weak to carnal temptation. A man forgets what;s most important because he thinks of himself as a warrior or provider. WHat's Braveheart without defining Wallace according to his relation to his women loves? What are they without him? When the Earl of Bruce makes his...What we're saying is that female characters should no more be defined by their relationships to male characters than vice versa. There are plenty of male characters that go through entire books/movies/whatever without romance being part of it -- or with the romance being a minor detail -- and the same should be possible for female characters.
That's not silly; that's fairness. I love my boyfriend dearly, but if you asked me what makes me me, what's the thing I spend the most time thinking about, where does most of my effort go, etc., my relationship with him would be in my top 10, but it wouldn't be #1. The same is true for many women. But most fiction treats female characters as if their romantic relationships must always be the #1 priority for them. The same is not true of male characters, and it's not an accurate portrayal for many women.
I also found this strange - certainly we are affected by those we love, but they needn't be lovers - they could be family, or of the opposite gender. Certainly Martin's women are strongly defined by their relationship to men, but they live in a patriarchal, misogynistic world. It demands they have a response (defiant or cunning) to that problem of some kind if they are to be heroic.
It's silly to say you can't define a heroine by her rekationship to males. In many ways, male characters are defined by their relationship to females. A man fights fiercely to avenge a lost love. A good man is weak to carnal temptation. A man forgets what;s most important because he thinks of himself as a warrior or provider. WHat's Braveheart without defining Wallace according to his relation to his women loves? What are they without him? When the Earl of Bruce makes his...What we're saying is that female characters should no more be defined by their relationships to male characters than vice versa. There are plenty of male characters that go through entire books/movies/whatever without romance being part of it -- or with the romance being a minor detail -- and the same should be possible for female characters.
That's not silly; that's fairness. I love my boyfriend dearly, but if you asked me what makes me me, what's the thing I spend the most time thinking about, where does most of my effort go, etc., my relationship with him would be in my top 10, but it wouldn't be #1. The same is true for many women. But most fiction treats female characters as if their romantic relationships must always be the #1 priority for them. The same is not true of male characters, and it's not an accurate portrayal for many women.
Alyx the Adventuress, from the collection of the same name by Joanna Russ is particularly noteworthy in this regard. The character has relationships with several relationships with various men of the course of the stories, but it's just not that big a part of her life.
In the first two stories she is committed, first and foremost, to her religion, but leaves it because it's repressive. She then marries a man, and leaves him for much the same reason. However, the two stories were first published in the wrong order, simply because the editor of the magazine, a man, thought the marriage had to take precedence over the religious experience.
Putting it simply, a lot of perfectly proficient authors write varied male characters and one kind of female character.
Edit: Responding to Jeff: Look at {i]Downton Abbey[/i]; marriage is a huge concern for all the unmarried female characters, but that does more to define the world than said characters.
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I note that in my examples of male heroes defined in part by relationships, I include a workaholic/warrior who forgets his family. It's an example of a flaw in that relationship defining him. I agree that romantic relationships aren't the only ones worth mentioning in developing a strong character.
I don't want heroines defined by the males around them any more than I want heroes defined by the females around them. I think a male character with no female relationship at all is missing a dimension. Even a great screenplay like Hunt for Red October has the spectre of strong women defining some of its principle characters.
I have not read Alyx the Adventurous, but I suppose from your description I see the failed marriage as defining of her character. Would she be the same without that experience.
I'm not well-read enough to disagree that numerous male writers write varying males and a narrower subset of women. I'm just responding to the OP, and to the early sentiment that a heroin could be a character with the same heroic qualities as a hero, but without being defined by or compared to men.
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I note that in my examples of male heroes defined in part by relationships, I include a workaholic/warrior who forgets his family. It's an example of a flaw in that relationship defining him. I agree that romantic relationships aren't the only ones worth mentioning in developing a strong character.
I don't want heroines defined by the males around them any more than I want heroes defined by the females around them. I think a male character with no female relationship at all is missing a dimension. Even a great screenplay like Hunt for Red October has the spectre of strong women defining some of its principle characters.
I have not read Alyx the Adventurous, but I suppose from your description I see the failed marriage as defining of her character. Would she be the same without that experience.
I'm not well-read enough to disagree that numerous male writers write varying males and a narrower subset of women. I'm just responding to the OP, and to the early sentiment that a heroin could be a character with the same heroic qualities as a hero, but without being defined by or compared to men.
I think you are inadvertently discounting G/L relationships here. It also, in fantasy in particular, possible for a character to have no major ongoing relationships with the opposite sex - a celibate monk in a religious house, or a traditional Amazon, for example.
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People still NEED the company of other people, just to maintain their sanity. Solitary confinement was a punishment.
What kind of hero are you trying to write?
Princess Leia. A spy for the Rebellion. A strong leader. Handy with a blaster. A weakness for scoundrels. Willing to walk into the Jabba's Palace to rescue the man she fell in love with. A strong, heroic woman, even if she had to be rescued a few times.
Catwoman. A thief, mostly out for herself, that occaisionally fights crime in the worst part of the worst city in the DCU.
Laura Secord. Canadian heroine of 1812. She rode to warn of the U.S. invasion.
All heroes need rescuing. It makes for good entertainment. Give the sidekicks and love interests something to do.
Not writing - just developing a pool of ideas about what makes a strong female character. That way I can write it later. Some Ideas I agree with , others I don't. I'm interested in knowing more about those reasons so that nothing is lost from the pool of collective knowledge.
As to Princess Leia I don't see a strongly developed character because we must assume she is a strong person from what little participation in her role we have access to.
What if Princess Leia had simply left the Empire and build resources for her War with it beyond the Empire's Reach? Its a big Universe.
If women are defined by their relations with men, then all religious (nuns) everywhere remain undefined? Of course it could be argued that they are defined by their relationship with one Man (Christ) but that's probably not what you mean.
I finished reading The Hunger Games last night with its male protagonist who is compassionate, emotionally nurturing, considerate and talks openly about his feelings.
Apparently, it isn't only male writers and their female characters who get it wrong...
I note that in my examples of male heroes defined in part by relationships, I include a workaholic/warrior who forgets his family. It's an example of a flaw in that relationship defining him. I agree that romantic relationships aren't the only ones worth mentioning in developing a strong character.
I don't want heroines defined by the males around them any more than I want heroes defined by the females around them. I think a male character with no female relationship at all is missing a dimension. Even a great screenplay like Hunt for Red October has the spectre of strong women defining some of its principle characters.
I have not read Alyx the Adventurous, but I suppose from your description I see the failed marriage as defining of her character. Would she be the same without that experience.
I'm not well-read enough to disagree that numerous male writers write varying males and a narrower subset of women. I'm just responding to the OP, and to the early sentiment that a heroin could be a character with the same heroic qualities as a hero, but without being defined by or compared to men.
Well, here's the thing: I first read Picnic on Paradise (published as a separate novel) so I didn't know about the religious experience or the marriage. I will say that Alyx is one of those rare characters who has sex, but is not defined by her relationships with men; that is, she has relationships with the men she meets, but realizes that those relationships aren't the most defining factor of her existence.
As an open question to the thread, How do think Dingo's original definition-with-a-question-mark applies to Nell from The Diamond Age by Neal Stephenson? Sorta works for me.