| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
I've been playing Pathfinder for a year now, mostly PFS, which as we all know has no crafting (Gunslingers don't count). I'm going to be playing in a Legacy of Fire campaign soon, and am jumping into my first full-blown wizard, complete with crafting. The rest of this is me attempting to explain the crafting rules to make sure I know them. Hopefully somebody will point out how I've completely misinterpreted something. Some of the parts in bold are what I'm not sure about yet.
MASSIVE Wall o' text warning.
I'm taking Craft(alchemy). I want to make some Alchemist's Fire (AF from now on) on the cheap, because who doesn't like burning things?
1) Find the item's price in silver pieces (1 gp = 10 sp). AF costs 20 gp, or 200 sp.
2) Find the item's DC from Table: Craft Skills. AF is DC 20.
3) Pay 1/3 of the item's price for the raw material cost. AF costs the crafter 66 or 67 sp.
4) Make an appropriate Craft check representing one week's worth of work. If the check succeeds, multiply your check result by the DC. If the result × the DC equals the price of the item in sp, then you have completed the item. (If the result × the DC equals double or triple the price of the item in silver pieces, then you've completed the task in one-half or one-third of the time. Other multiples of the DC reduce the time in the same manner.) If the result × the DC doesn't equal the price, then it represents the progress you've made this week. Record the result and make a new Craft check for the next week. Each week, you make more progress until your total reaches the price of the item in silver pieces.
OK, so getting a 20 to craft AF gives a result of 20 x 20 = 400 sp. Therefore, you can create 1 AF in half a week, or 2 AFs in a week (paying 134 sp), presumeably working 8 hours a day. Does this follow the magic item rules about crafting while adventuring? If you get a 30, that's 600 sp, or 3 AFs, you can make in a week. Now, do you have to make items one at a time, or can you just say how many you're making this week based on the result? Easier for everyone if it's the latter.
You can also decide in advance to raise a DC by ten in order to work faster by raising your multiplier. Now getting your 30 to craft AF gives 30 x 30 = 900 sp, which is 4.5 AFs in one week, or one in two days.
If you fail a check by 4 or less, you make no progress this week. If you fail by 5 or more, you ruin half the raw materials and have to pay half the original raw material cost again.
If you get a 19 to craft AF, you make no progress, and if you get a 15, you lose 33 or 34 sp worth of materials.
Making an antitoxin is DC 25, is worth 500 sp and costs 167 sp. Making the 25 gives 25 x 25 = 625 sp. This is ugly, but essentially you can make an antitoxin in 6 days. You need to get a 35 on your craft check at DC 35 before you can make 2 antitoxins in a week (6 days again, actually).
Now, let's say I was crazy enough to make a masterwork weapon for my fighter pal without using the Masterwork Transformation spell. Let's pick a longsword, because it's worth 15 gp which is divisible by 3. The normal longsword costs 150 sp (crafter pays 50 sp), and is DC 15. Easy enough. Bare minimum is 15 x 15 = 225 sp and you've got your longsword in 5 days. Get your craft check up to 25 to get the sword done in 2 days.
Once you go for masterwork, you're in trouble. 315 gp becomes 3150 sp. You pay 1050 sp or 105 gp, and the DC is now 20. 20 x 20 = 400 sp, and it takes 8 weeks to make that thing. Getting your craft skill up to 30 means it still takes you 3.5 weeks.
If you only care about the bare minimum for crafting, you only need to get your craft bonus up to +13, because your alchemist's kit/mwk artisan's tools will give you a +2 to get you to the hardest DC (25) by taking 10 (this is ignoring traps and high strength composite bows). If you're only making weapons and armor, you only need a 20 for mwk stuff, or a +8 bonus on your own. Even lower if you just want to make your own arrows or something. But the extra speed is worth it, so craft is worth maxing if you're going to do any real amount of it.
This is somewhat simpler than mundane crafting, I suppose to make up for the extra cost and requirements. You have to pay half of the base price of the item in raw materials, and you can make an item in 1 day per 1000 gp of its base price, irrespective of the DC. This is working 8 hours per day. If you rush, you can complete this in only 4 hours by increasing the DC by 5, but you cannot exceed the 1000 gp/day limit. If you work while adventuring, you can squeeze in 4 hours of work to get 2 hours (or 250 gp) worth of progress. If you get a portable artificer's lab (costs 300 gp), you get 3 hours of progress (375 gp) for those 4 hours of work, but the DC goes up by 5. You also need the required spell prepared (or known, if you're a spontaneous caster) each day you're working on the item, and it must be cast during the process.
Potions and scrolls are an exception to this rule; they can take as little as 2 hours to create (if their base price is 250 gp or less). Scrolls and potions whose base price is more than 250 gp, but less than 1,000 gp, take 8 hours to create, just like any other magic item. [...]Regardless of the time needed for construction, a caster can create no more than one magic item per day.
While mundane crafting lets you make rolls per day of work if you so desire, magical crafting requires full commitment. You make one Spellcraft roll at the end of the required amount of time based on the base price of the item you want to make. Fail this roll by 4 or less and the item doesn't work, and you've wasted all that time and money. Fail by 5 or more, and it's cursed, which the GM gets to have fun with. At least if it's cursed you can sell it to some schmuck if you're chaotic and/or evil, or find a weird collector.
For this reason, you shouldn't spend the resources to craft something unless you can finish it by taking 10 on your check. Exceeding the DC by any amount gives you nothing extra; no faster speed or cheaper cost. But if you fail, you're screwed. Nothing like wasting days of work and thousands of gold because you didn't roll high on the die. On the other hand, maybe you're the gambling type and you've got a lot of extra money from crafting already, right? Right?
Let's spice this up with some examples, hey? Let's say I'm taking Craft Wonderous Item at level 3. The first thing I want to make is a Handy Haversack, because I'm a weakling and the fighter's getting sick of carrying my crafting gear. It's base price is 2000 gp, so I know it'll take 2 days of full effort and cost 1000 gp. What else do I need? Craft Wonderous Item and the spell Secret Chest. Well, dang. Secret chest is a 5th level spell, so I can't cast it until I'm level 9. Not to worry, as I can simply substitue requirements by increasing the DC of the Spellcraft check to show how much harder I have to work at it! The crafting feat is always required, though, and you can't substitute requirements when crafting potions, spell-trigger items (wands and staves), and spell-completion items (scrolls).
OK, the base DC for crafting magical items is 5 plus CL. Handy Haversack is a 9th CL item (because of Secret Chest), so the base DC is 14. I don't know Secret Chest, so I have to increase the DC by 5 to ignore that requirement, making it a DC 19. At level 3, I've got a 20 int (+5) and max ranks (+3) in Spellcraft, a class skill for me (+3), giving me a +11 in Spellcraft. Taking 10 gives me a 21, meaning I have no problem making this item! If I wanted to work only 4 hours per day, however, that would push the DC to 24, and I'd have to roll a 13 on the die; not worth the risk. If I'm making this while I'm out adventuring, I can get it done in 8 days. Using a portable artificer's lab shortens this time to 6 days, but the DC is 24 again and I'm not ready for that yet. With my luck, the GM would say I made a Bag of Devouring by accident.
Now, let's say I didn't have that high a Spellcraft bonus, couldn't be sure of making the DC 19 and didn't want to chance it on the dice. There's a couple of ways around this. First, I can get some friendly caster who can cast Secret Chest to stand over my shoulder and cast it when I need it. Maybe. You could read it so that this isn't allowed. I'd probably have to pay him, though. I could also go buy two scrolls of Secret Chest (one for each day I'll need to craft the item), and make a caster level check to cast the spell from the scroll. That costs more than the market price of the Haversack, though, and would be pretty stupid.
Now, with items where the spell required doesn't line up so nicely with the item's caster level, how does that work? Does the higher CL only adjust the base DC, or have I gotten this all wrong and need to increase the DC by 5 for the lack of the CL, as well?
If you want a special ability, you'll need to check for the caster level of the ability you're adding. These also require spells, which can be skipped by raising the DC by 5. Now, since special abilities can't be added to weapons without enhancements, there's the question of how the required CLs interact. You simply take the higher of the two as the requirement. For example, I want to make my fighter pal a +2 frost longsword. Starting with a masterwork longsword (already paid for), I need to be 6th level for the +2, and 8th level for the frost ability, so I need to be 8th level. I also need the spell Ice Storm (or Chill Metal if I were a druid), which isn't a problem since it's only a 4th level spell. The frost ability costs the same as a +1 bonus, so this weapon is priced as if it were a +3 weapon, or 18000 gp. This takes 9000 gp and 18 days of work from me, and I need to make a DC 13 check. If I wanted to only work 4 hours a day AND I didn't have Ice Storm, the DC is still only 23, which a wizard has no problem making by taking 10 at level 8.
Now, I want to take that +2 frost longsword and make it a +3 frost longsword. The caster level is now determined by the +3 bonus, which gives 9th CL, and that beats the 8th CL from the frost ability. As for the cost, a +4 bonus costs 32000 gp, but you've already got 18000 gp of it, so you need to work with the difference, or 14000 gp. That's 14 days of work at DC 14, costing 7000 gp. I'm pretty sure you don't need Ice Storm now, since you already have the frost property. If you started from scratch at this point, you would still need Ice Storm even though the +3 bonus is what determines the caster level. Upgrading the frost ability to the icy burst ability is probably allowed, since the latter is a clear upgrade to the former and they require the same spell. This raises the caster level to 10th, beating the 9th CL from the +3, and so on and so forth.
Armor is just like weapons, except with costs, and therefore time commitment, halved. There are also a lot of magic items (such as rings of protection) that follow the x3 caster level rule for each level of bonus they provide.
And that's more than enough. Thanks to those who read through that. Just typing this out, I caught 3 or 4 mistaken assumptions I had. I'd appreciate any other corrections you can give me.
Dot.
|
I've got a pretty good handle on crafting rules (though probably not a perfect understanding), and here's my comments/corrections:
1) I've always assumed mundane crafting follows the same 8 hour workday rule and penalties for crafting while adventuring that magic crafting does.
2) My group has always played that you can make up to as many mundane items within a week as your result allows. It's simpler, and makes sense based on the rules for crafting by the day. Don't think RAW specifies.
3) You can make 2K worth of progress on a magic item in a day with 8 hours of accelerated crafting. Accelerated crafting says that you make 1K worth of progress in 4 hours and does not say anything about changing the usual rule of being able to craft 8 hours a day. The point of accelerated crafting is that you are able to complete your item in fewer days.
4) Not exactly sure what you mean by full commitment, but yes, you make one all-or-nothing roll and there's no benefit to rolling above the DC.
5) Yes, you can get a friendly caster to cast a prerequisite spell for you or get it off a scroll. Yes, this can be extremely expensive.
6) It's true that item CL doesn't always nicely match spells involved. The item CL is not a requirement. It's a more general measure of item power. It determines your craft DC how hard it is to affect the item with Dispel Magic, and how magical the item detects. You don't have to adjust the DC if your CL is lower than the item's CL. You just have to be able to achieve the spellcraft DC of 5 + Item CL + 5 per missing requirement (and again, item CL is not a missing requirement) Does that answer that one?
7) Actually, you can ignore the CL requirement for weapons and armour as well, but this one adds +5 to the DC just like ignoring a spell requirement.
8) You shouldn't need Ice Storm to upgrade a +2 Frost weapon to a +3 Frost weapon, since you're not actually adding an ability that requires the spell.
9) I don't think that upgrading an energy property to an energy burst property is strictly allowed in the rules, but I think it makes sense to allow it.
10) Note that if you can find a safe place to craft during the adventuring day and at least 4 consecutive hours to craft there you can speed up your times for crafting while adventuring. Easiest way to do this is to get yourself a Ring of Sustenance, learn Rope Trick, and craft while your party sleeps in your secure hideaway.
Weirdo is correct, you can ignore the Caster Level requirement of Weapons and Armor just like everything else.
Weirdo: Upgrading an energy property to energy burst property IS within the rules because it references that the Flaming property is included.
- Gauss
3) You can make 2K worth of progress on a magic item in a day with 8 hours of accelerated crafting. Accelerated crafting says that you make 1K worth of progress in 4 hours and does not say anything about changing the usual rule of being able to craft 8 hours a day. The point of accelerated crafting is that you are able to complete your item in fewer days.
Well, that's just awesome. I thought accelerated crafting was only for times when you're trying to do stuff in town and you stay at your base each night. Thanks.
7) Actually, you can ignore the CL requirement for weapons and armour as well, but this one adds +5 to the DC just like ignoring a spell requirement.
OK, I got confused because the requirement was specifically called out in a separate section. Crafting is mostly only limited by your gold and time, then, isn't it?
10) Note that if you can find a safe place to craft during the adventuring day and at least 4 consecutive hours to craft there you can speed up your times for crafting while adventuring. Easiest way to do this is to get yourself a Ring of Sustenance, learn Rope Trick, and craft while your party sleeps in your secure hideaway.
Good to know. And cheap.
Thanks.
|
|
I've seen this debate before. The thing is, that requirement is described as a prerequisite, which indicates that it follows the normal rules for prerequisites. The general rule is that prerequisites can be ignored. Since the description of magic armor and weapons doesn't specifically say that the caster level is a prerequisite that can't be ignored, it doesn't override the rule that a prerequisite can be ignored.
The counter-argument is I believe the fact that it's described as a "special" prerequisite and that it repeats that the caster level "must" be met, but similar use of the word "must" appears elsewhere in the description of prerequisites that can be ignored. Also note that items like the Bracers of Armor, Amulet of Natural Armor, Amulet of Mighty Fists, and Cloak of Resistance have similar requirements and they're all presented as normal prerequisites. Doesn't make sense to me that a 5th level crafter could, given the cash and a high Spellcraft, make Bracers of Armor +5 or AoMF +5 but only a +1 Chain Shirt or +1 Longsword.
That said, check with your GM about this one since many rule that prerequisites taking the form of a minimum caster level can't be bypassed (and I can see this one making sense if it's applied to the wondrous items, too).
Weirdo: Upgrading an energy property to energy burst property IS within the rules because it references that the Flaming property is included.
Good to know. I've been assuming that was a "reasonable house rule."
darkwarriorkarg:
For specific to trump general there must be a difference in the rule. Something that indicates it is ran differently. There is no such case with the rule you quoted. It is a prerequisite just like all prerequisites.
Weirdo is correct:
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
So, the first bold says the same thing as your 'Da Rules' quote. Ie: 'must'. The second bolded section states that prerequisites EXCEPT the Item Creation Feat can be bypassed.
Now lets look at your quote:
Creating magic armor has a special prerequisite: The creator’s caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the armor. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. Magic armor or a magic shield must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus to have any armor or shield special abilities.
Nowhere in here does it state that this is an exception to the normal rules about increasing the DC by +5. Yes it says must...so does the normal rules on prerequisites. Yes it states it is a special prerequisite. But what does 'special' mean? There is no definition to special that states it is an exception to the rules. Thus, it is not.
As I stated at the beginning, for specific to trump general there must be a change or other exception actually listed. There is none here and because of that Weapons and Armor caster levels can be bypassed just like every other prerequisite.
- Gauss
The Belt of Physical Might is priced like this:
1st stat is at normal price.
2nd stat is at normal price times 1.5.
That is how the belt follows the rule on page 553.
For the item the wizard in your group is making it would be priced like this:
Hat of Disguise: 1800
Headband of Vast Intellect +4: 4*4*1000 = 16000
Belt of Incredible Dexterity +4: 4*4*1000 = 16000
Belt of Giant Strength +4: 4*4*1000 = 16000
The abilities after the first have a price of 1.5x. Because of this the most expensive should be priced first.
Intelligence: 16,000
Dexterity: 16,000*1.5 = 24,000
Strength: 16,000*1.5 = 24,000
Disguise: 1,800*1.5 = 2,700
Total Price: 66,700
Total Crafting cost: 33,350gp.
There are no rules for increasing the DC due to magic effects added to the item.
Since the wizard is clearly trying to get as many wondrous items as he can into one slot so that he does not have to pay for the feat you could houserule that item abilities need to be kept in the slot they are originally intended and if they are placed in a different slot they will increase in price.
Alternately, as a houserule you can only put 3 abilities on one item (the same number as a headband or belt of all 3 mental or physical stats).
Ultimately, this is not a problem in price..it is a problem of your player trying to push a class ability to the point where he gets a feat for free. Note: if your player does in fact have Craft Wondrous Item he is actually gimping himself by doing this.
- Gauss
*Cough "Dot." *Cough
Fenrat:
The price for +4dex is 16,000*1.5 = 24,000.
The price for +4strength is 16,000*1.5 = 24,000.
As usual, the crafting costs for both is half of those prices.
You stated he is adding abilities to his Bonded Item. You do not need a feat to do that. A Wizard gains the ability to enchant his bonded item as if he had the feat (he does not actually gain the feat for free) provided he would qualify for that feat normally (ie: caster level).
His bonded item is a neck slot choker. That requires Craft Wondrous Item to enchant. Thus, for the purposes of that choker ONLY he has Craft Wondrous Item when he hits caster level 3. To enchant any other Wondrous Item he must buy the feat normally.
So we ask:
Why is he is trying to stuff this many abilities on one item when that would be more expensive than just making the other items?
Answer: He probably does not have Craft Wondrous Item and is trying to sidestep not possessing that feat by putting all of his magic items into his Bonded Item. This saves him about 25% of the cost of buying items he cannot craft. (1.5x/2 = 0.75 of normal cost, ie: a 25% savings)
Of course, I could be wrong, he could have the feat. In which case: Why is he gimping himself by paying extra money trying to shove all of this stuff into one item?
- Gauss
Fenrat: Dotting is when you make a post for the sole purpose of getting a dot on the message boards. The dot makes the post easier to find.
- Gauss
That could also be handy for allowing multiple effects on one slot. Like a Belt of Physical Perfection with the bonus from a Heavyload Belt and Equestrian Belt.
Not exactly Optimal but not bad if you didn't wanna take up other slots.
Dot
Gwaihir Scout, you'll definitely want to pick this item up; it makes adventuring and crafting feasible:
thanks a ton man, this clears up a lot of things!
Gwaihir Scout, you'll definitely want to pick this item up; it makes adventuring and crafting feasible:
They do seem cool, but it looks like they won't help this character as the only Craft skill I'm picking up is alchemy, relying on Spellcraft for everything else. They're a little expensive to waste on mundane items, and since there's no single Craft skill you can use for Wonderous Items, I wouldn't know where to throw my ranks to make good use of these.
Gauss, I'll talk with my GM about the caster level issue if comes up (we may not have the gold and time until I'm the right level anyway), but I'm going to use your interpretation when I GM a game with crafters. By the time you have the gold, you're pretty close to that level anyway.
Also: Holy convolutions, Batman! I'm going to stay away from making custom items for a while.
Gwaihir Scout, you can craft while adventuring.
Method 1) While adventuring you accumulate 4 hours per day of which only 2 count. This is the default rate.
Method 2) If you have a Ring of Sustenance you can use the extra 6hours per night to craft. Since you do not have a proper distraction free environment you will only accrue 3 hours. Added to the while adventuring rate and maxed at 8 hours per day you accrue 4hours per day.
Method 3) If you have a Ring of Sustenance AND a Rope Trick (or other distraction free environment to work) you can accrue 6hours per day while everyone else sleeps. This can be increased to 8hours if you stop adventuring a couple hours before everyone's bedtime and have 10hours of Rope Trick available (doable at level 5 with a rod of extend).
Method 4 *high level*) At high levels the Ring of Sustenance and Rope Trick method may not be fast enough. At that point use Plane Shift and find a fast time plane (GMG p185). I would find a fast time plane that has a rate of 1hour = 1day or better. After returning to the material plane use teleportation magics to return to your previous location.
- Gauss
Create Demiplane could also work.
Create Demiplane would require the Greater (9th level) version and it only doubles time rather than x24 time or greater.
- Gauss
I am just saying it is possible if you need to use it.
Yup, Ive pointed it out to others. However, Plane hopping (plane shift) is available at level 9. A full 8 levels earlier. Admitedly, plane shift is a bit dangerous at that point.
- Gauss
That is true.