At what point does a Wizard become a God and a Fighter useless


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Xenh wrote:


Speaking back to the OP's question...never. Outside of that they both have their strengths and weaknesses. Both can kill the other one in a single attack, but only one wears a frilly lace thong to battle.

Hey! What a fighter wears under their armor is their own business. Especially if it makes you feel pretty.;)


How do you define "a god"?

.


One to one , I would say a prepared wizard has the advantage from around lvl 7-8 if the fighter does not kill him in the first round

Reason for this is Dimension Door:
If he is not dead , any competent wizard will flee the battle i order to prepare after which the combination of Fly/invisibility/summon spells or
Fly/Greater Invisibility/Damage or incapaciting spell has a great chance to kill the fighter and even if this does not work the wizard can fly away


The party in the campaign I run at the moment consists of a Barbarian, Rogue, Wizard and a Cleric (multiclassed, though), all at level 10. They have not fought each other, but if that were to happen in most reasonable scenarios (but it is indeed scenario specific), the Barbarian (not a Fighter, I guess, but still) would probably slaughter the Wizard. This is a poor measure of class worth, though, as that kind of one on one fight is rarely encountered in actual campaigns.

A more accurate measure of 'power' might be the extent to which each class contributes in a campaign. In combat, the Barbarian contributes the most in my current campaign, though the Wizard is not far behind and neither is the Rogue. The Cleric contributes the least, but that may be because the Cleric is multiclassed with a custom class I have invented, thus possessing only five Cleric levels and five levels of my class).

For the record, though, I do use many house rules and magic item availability is very restricted indeed.

Out of combat, the contribution of each class is heavily campaign dependent and story-specific. In my current campaign, the contribution is fairly balanced. I can see, though, why in most campaigns the spellcasters may have an edge in this.

Personally, when I am a player, I do generally prefer spellcasters to non-casters. The reason is not really power, though, but the fact that I simply find them more interesting. It is exciting for me to wield magic, as it is a possibility that does not exist on Earth. And I do find their out of combat options more interesting. Indeed, I think the main weakness of a Fighter is not combat capability, but having relatively few out of combat options. Having said that, I still do enjoy playing Fighters and other non-casters too and certainly have had fun playing my fair share of them. :)


robin wrote:

I would say a prepared wizard has the advantage from around lvl 7-8 if the fighter does not kill him in the first round

That's a pretty big if though.

I've played in groups with some scary optimized fighters that could easily one-shot my (actually pretty buff) wizard (not to mention each other), so I think you can definitely build a warrior who can match a wizard in a straight fight, at least into the teens.

I think there are two issues that put the wizard ahead of the curve in a non-straight fight.

1) Wizards cheat. A fighter needs to charge you to be dangerous. A wizard can be soundless, invisible, and teleport into your bedroom to lightning bolt you while you sleep.

2) Wizards are a lot easier to build. If you want the crazy-efficient warrior type, you probably have to plot it out from level 1. As a wizard, you can kinda just bumble around, make sure to not neglect Intelligence, and still end up with the right spells to be fairly close to 'optimal'.

3) Wizards have a lot of options that isn't the equivalent of "hit it with your sword 'till it stops moving" for winning fights.

...wait, okay, the three issues that put the wizard ahead are...


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Fighters are always useful. They're great for taking out Mooks/Minions. I'm saving my spells for something important. Plus in a pinch they taste like chicken.


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Slaunyeh wrote:

1) Wizards cheat. A fighter needs to charge you to be dangerous. A wizard can be soundless, invisible, and teleport into your bedroom to lightning bolt you while you sleep.

2) Wizards are a lot easier to build. If you want the crazy-efficient warrior type, you probably have to plot it out from level 1. As a wizard, you can kinda just bumble around, make sure to not neglect Intelligence, and still end up with the right spells to be fairly close to 'optimal'.

3) Wizards have a lot of options that isn't the equivalent of "hit it with your sword 'till it stops moving" for winning fights.

1. The wizard needs 8 hours of sleep to get back in the game. The fighter not only can go for days (I feel a Terminator vibe here), but he will generally have the CON to continue to stalk long past the point where a normal man would be exhausted. Fighters can cheat as well (read: where's my spellbook? Poisoned arrows! No fair you can....<snore>).

2. I can think of very few fighter builds that would be useless against a low AC/low hit point wizard. Nearly any fighter could roll out of bed and make a wizard their hand puppet. The wizard's selection of spells is absolutely crucial in whether they will be effective at all against the fighter.

3. Hitting something with your sword until it stops moving is a very very effective strategy :)


Fighters with poison are a joy to play.


Electric Wizard wrote:
How do you define "a god"?

17th level Wizard.


Xenh wrote:
Slaunyeh wrote:

1) Wizards cheat. A fighter needs to charge you to be dangerous. A wizard can be soundless, invisible, and teleport into your bedroom to lightning bolt you while you sleep.

2) Wizards are a lot easier to build. If you want the crazy-efficient warrior type, you probably have to plot it out from level 1. As a wizard, you can kinda just bumble around, make sure to not neglect Intelligence, and still end up with the right spells to be fairly close to 'optimal'.

3) Wizards have a lot of options that isn't the equivalent of "hit it with your sword 'till it stops moving" for winning fights.

1. The wizard needs 8 hours of sleep to get back in the game. The fighter not only can go for days (I feel a Terminator vibe here), but he will generally have the CON to continue to stalk long past the point where a normal man would be exhausted. Fighters can cheat as well (read: where's my spellbook? Poisoned arrows! No fair you can....<snore>).

2. I can think of very few fighter builds that would be useless against a low AC/low hit point wizard. Nearly any fighter could roll out of bed and make a wizard their hand puppet. The wizard's selection of spells is absolutely crucial in whether they will be effective at all against the fighter.

3. Hitting something with your sword until it stops moving is a very very effective strategy :)

Lol at the wizard as hand puppet. Wizards also rightly fear greataxes, harpoons and reach weapons. Getting tripped or impaled before being hit until you stop moving is a bad way to go, especially after all that study.


Xenh wrote:
Nicos wrote:
The thing is that the Ops Dm make a universal assertion "under any circumstance...", with just one exception that asserton will be proven wrong.

Aha, now I understand. Sorry I was slow on the uptake :)

I was still fixated on the vorpal nail clippers that end the combat with one swing, unless you're fighting the god Loki.

Run, Just Run wrote:
Xenh wrote:
Any frail, pale bookworm that enters combat wearing nothing more than wedding dress is never going to be unbeatable.
I disagree river tam from firefly is or was a book worm how else was she a genius and Willow from Buffy could beat just about anyone in a wedding dress.

Of course they can kick butt, they have levels in fighter.

Think how much better they'd be at fighting if they didn't waste time on learning such drivel and instead worked on their abs.

Willow has 0 levels in fighter she uses magic exclusively I don't think she's ever used a weapon except once.

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