I'm a new GM and have recently introduced Pathfinder (Beginner Box) to my games group. I plan to slowly introduce more core rules and creatures into the game and having just played and finished Crypt of the Everflame the PCs (currently at level 2) ran into swarms for the first time.
The question I have are what methods are there for low level characters to deal with swarms?
I searched the forums and there have been a number of threads on this subject (in particular this thread from a couple of years ago, Dealing with a swarm when you have no choice). As a GM I would like to ensure I understand the methods used to deal with diminutive and tiny swarms, particularly in context of low level characters who may not have the equipment or spells to deal with them effectively. I don't want to be throwing more swarms at the PCs until they have some chance to be able to deal with them.
I understand that for diminutive and tiny swarms they are immune to all weapon damage and that swarms take an additional 50% damage from spells and effects that affect an area. What I would like are some examples of spells and splash weapons that would damage swarms (at least those that low levels PCs could use). Here's my current understanding.
Burning Hands would seem to work (and at +50%) but would the swarm get a Reflex saving throw for half damage (given the size of swarms)?
What about Magic Missile, Ray of Frost, Acid Arrow or Scorching Ray? I assume they all targets single creatures making them ineffective.
What about Sleep? Swarms such as bats and rats don't have hive minds so I guess that's out.
Alchemist's Fire. Would a swarm (even a mindless one such as spiders) get a DC15 Reflex saving throw to avoid the follow-on 1d6 damage?
Torches only deal one point of fire damage, you ignore the 1d3 damage, so that makes them pretty useless.
Oil and Acid can be used but what about against flying swarms such as bats? This applies to Alchemist's Fire as well, it's unlikely the flask would conveniently break in mid-air if thrown into a bat swarm.
Any comments on the above are welcome? Are there other recommendations on how to deal with swarms?
Burning Hands is the best spell option (there aren't many low level damaging Area effect spells, and you're right that MM, RoF, AA, and SR are ineffective as they do not affect an Area). If only Grease were still flammable ;-)
Oil is incredibly cheap, and most adventuring parties should have it by default, and in abundance, since a light source will generally be desired by anyone without darkvision. Its a little clunkier to use since it doesn't light itself, but it can certainly be workable. At the least (for a party incapable of affording Alchemist's Fire and without access to blast spells), I'd recommend buying a (several?) glass bottle(s) and putting the oil in it so it can at least be used as a shattering grenade projectile that will coat the swarm in oil...which someone can then light with a torch. Alternatively, it can be kept in some kind of non-rigid bladder such that it can be squirted at the target when squeezed.
Acid and especially Alchemist's Fire are affordable for low level parties, and they should generally make it a point to have a couple on hand to deal with swarms. They are very effective, especially AF with its burn damage combined with the +50% damage. A couple hits should suffice most of the time.
As for targeting flying swarms, its pretty much a non-issue, at least indoors (and dungeons are where swarms are most deadly). Just hit the ceiling above them to rain fiery death down from above. In game terms, I'd still run that as targeting the swarm itself, just using the environment as logical explanation of events. Really though, things like Alchemist's Fire thrown in to the heart of a swarm ought to break, even mid air, as it hits and is hit by several individuals in quick succession.
Just look out for low-level swarms with energy immunities .... It really sucks to find out the swarm chasing you is unaffected by the wizards chosen AoE.
Fire works well against most swarms. Magical or normal. In many cases the best thing to do about swarms is to just ignore them and walk away.
Many thanks MTCityHunter, that's a good start.
MTCityHunter wrote: Acid and especially Alchemist's Fire are affordable for low level parties, and they should generally make it a point to have a couple on hand to deal with swarms. They are very effective, especially AF with its burn damage combined with the +50% damage. A couple hits should suffice most of the time. Ah yes, I forgot that ordinary effects such as AF, fire and acid would also have the +50% damage bonus.
What about the Reflex saving throw (when using AF) or splash effects (AF and Acid). Do people bother with these?
MTCityHunter wrote: As for targeting flying swarms, its pretty much a non-issue, at least indoors (and dungeons are where swarms are most deadly). Just hit the ceiling above them to rain fiery death down from above. In game terms, I'd still run that as targeting the swarm itself, just using the environment as logical explanation of events. Really though, things like Alchemist's Fire thrown in to the heart of a swarm ought to break, even mid air, as it hits and is hit by several individuals in quick succession. Good point, based on this I think I'll let the PCs use AF in this way.
Artanthos wrote: Just look out for low-level swarms with energy immunities .... It really sucks to find out the swarm chasing you is unaffected by the wizards chosen AoE. Given the group are beginners to RPGs, I'm not going to throw anything like that at them. If need be, I'll stick to bats and spiders and maybe later ants, rats, centipedes and wasps. Certainly, only those from the first Bestiary Book.
Adamantine Dragon wrote: Fire works well against most swarms. Magical or normal. In many cases the best thing to do about swarms is to just ignore them and walk away. Trouble with just Oil is that it doesn't do that much damage, only 1d3 (+50%). It's only going to affect the swarm once really, no reason it would stick around in the area on fire.
As you say, walking (or running) away is a good option, except most swarms seem to be able to move faster than the PCs :)
Hmm... most swarms I've encountered cannot outrun PCs. A few (mostly fying) can, but most I've encountered do not.
It always makes me chuckle a bit when I GM and the party can't deal with a spider swarm or snake swarm.
There is also a swarm proof suit that you can purchase if you want to.
Is there a way to damage a swarm that doesn't involve having to also damage the PC that is in the swarm's square? Or does damaging a swarm pretty much always necessitate also damaging a PC?
Is the following tactic valid?
* Swarm swarms PC A's square.
* PC B's turn - delay until after PC A
* PC A moves away from swarmed square
* PC B AoE's swarm's square without hitting PC A
Samy wrote: Is the following tactic valid?
* Swarm swarms PC A's square.
* PC B's turn - delay until after PC A
* PC A moves away from swarmed square
* PC B AoE's swarm's square without hitting PC A
Ya, pretty much standard tactics there.
Sounds legit to me, Samy.
On the topic of flying swarms, I tend to assume PCs can loosen the cap and/or give some spin to the container so it pops open on the flying swarm. Otherwise, I don't see how you could deal with them aside from AoEs.
I suppose the Jetcaster would be really useful in that situation, if you had one!
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