All they can do is recast invisibility or re-use the SLA invisibility. If it's a prepared caster and you want to find a way for them to do this, give them a pearl of power of the appropriate level, but be aware that this is probably giving the party the pearl as loot. Another way would be to give them an extra scroll of invisibility.
Even then, they'll have to stay out of the area of effect, or dispel it first before re-cloaking.
well to prepare or spend resources on a purge invisibility for the chance of invisibility is what limits the power of the spell.
All they can do is recast invisibility or re-use the SLA invisibility. If it's a prepared caster and you want to find a way for them to do this, give them a pearl of power of the appropriate level, but be aware that this is probably giving the party the pearl as loot. Another way would be to give them an extra scroll of invisibility.
Even then, they'll have to stay out of the area of effect, or dispel it first before re-cloaking.
I don't like the idea of the DM countering the players' choices. If the cleric prepares invisibility purge either because they are paranoid or because they did their research, and then the DM nullifies that by just giving the baddies a way around it, well, the DM is engaging in a form of railroading (This guy is going to be invisible no matter what!).
A villain who does research on the party and prepares for them, however, is a completely different situation.
Ok I'll explain my tom-foolery here. Essentially one of the PC's defected and became unrepentant chaotic evil, betraying an entire major city to an army of ravenous undead (player left the campaign, was mostly a douchebag) and his character fed the villains a lot of intel on the party. On one hand, it's a bit lame to do it this way but the players have had an easy time lately and I want to have a memorable, challenging encounter.All they can do is recast invisibility or re-use the SLA invisibility. If it's a prepared caster and you want to find a way for them to do this, give them a pearl of power of the appropriate level, but be aware that this is probably giving the party the pearl as loot. Another way would be to give them an extra scroll of invisibility.
Even then, they'll have to stay out of the area of effect, or dispel it first before re-cloaking.
I don't like the idea of the DM countering the players' choices. If the cleric prepares invisibility purge either because they are paranoid or because they did their research, and then the DM nullifies that by just giving the baddies a way around it, well, the DM is engaging in a form of railroading (This guy is going to be invisible no matter what!).
A villain who does research on the party and prepares for them, however, is a completely different situation.
Sounds like the villain has done his research, then. Consider using vanish to waste the party's invisibility purges.
Sounds like the villain has done his research, then. Consider using vanish to waste the party's invisibility purges.
This isn't going to quite work - invisibility purge doesn't simply one-shot invisibility one round, its an actual emanation which nullifies invisibility within 5'/level for 1 minute/level.
Recasting invisibility or vanish is simply going to waste those castings!
The only form of invisibility which will counter is, as has been mentioned, is natural invisibilty (as per an invisible stalker).
That said, there are many counters to invisibility purge: one could cast deeper darkness or any number of fogs; one could cast a resilient sphere about the caster of purge (likely to be effective since the caster is probably a cleric!); one could of course dispel the purge; one could confound the offending cleric with major image or the like (having it "suddenly appear" as it "enters the sphere of the purge). thereby using the cleric's own spell against him/ And so on.
Recasting invisibility doesn't work if you're still in the area of the invisibility purge; it's a minute/level spell.
Recasting invisibility or vanish is simply going to waste those castings!
You gentleman are of course correct, I was going off how I understood it to work from the first few posts. Haven't seen invisibility purge go off since I was playing in Carrion Crown.
Seems like a balanced spell to me.
see inv is a 2 lvl spell. Inv. purge is 3 lvl. Use an action to negate an other action. Seems fine.
And players have it so should any NPC cleric/oracle, with the same argument - better have just in case I meet something inv. - even if i'm just staying in my lair. Most evil NPC's will have made enemies - so it's fair to assume they'll want protection.
They don't need to have "done reseach" - but sure if the NPC have intel - he'll use it. There is nothing wrong with an encounter that stops one of the players best tricks, as long as you don't leave player with a feeling that you counter him at EVERY turn.
|
Dispel magic would stop it.
Dispel magic is a waste of an action to remove it. A better call is to stand invisible in the room and laugh at the party as they enter taunting them that they can't find him through his powerful invisibility spell and then ready an action to cast a maximized Fireball when the cleric tries to cast the purge.
Lets see any cleric make THAT concentration check (DC 25 minimum with the added benefit of getting the party on the defensive at the beginning).
|
Sounds like a really arbitrary and not fun way to screw over the players, to me, honestly. Assuming minimume level to cast Invis Purge and equal level for the defector (with Rod of Maximiz? or he's like 6 levels higher than the party), that's more of a DC 46-76 Concentration Check <10 + 6 (double Spell Level) + 30 - 60 (damage)>, and a Nat 20 will not do it. <all off the top of my head>
For a 5th level Cleric, even with maxed out Concentration, that's a 0% chance of success (20 + 5 CL + 6 Wis +4ish from Traits and Race, Combat Casting will not help here). Not even close. And the Cleric and/or party is probably dead, and needs to also check for massive damage.
Honestly, if the defector needs that much DM "Baron VonBadassing" to be a threat (letting him use intel against the party, but not letting the party have the same benefit here), it sounds like intentionally or not this is leading to the players feeling like they are a step behind no matter what, and probably frustrated rather than enjoying the encounter.
|
|
Bah, it's the standard method of dealing with a caster who has spells you don't want him to cast. It also has a MUCH higher likelihood of preventing the spell from going off (Dispel Magic checks are not an easy roll to make)
Realistically a 5th level sorcerer/wizard with a 3grand rod of maximize will do 30 pts of damage with this fireball (avg DC = 16-18). with a successful reflex save the party takes 15 pts of damage (negligible really but enough to start a panic even at 5th level). The cleric at this point even with avg HP's (28) and failing the save will still be conscious and functional (as long as they didn't tank their Con or not put a few level bonuses in HP's).
It creates a panic without actually preventing any party member from contributing or surviving. This is wizard dueling 101, get used to it.
Okay - what was the readied action? Cast fireball when someone cast a spell? - Well the wizard just started summoning thing that could cast dispel - BOOM - now it's the clerics turn - inv purge - NP.
Or did he ready to cast fireball if someone tried to cast inv purge? To bad the wizard already had a see inv cast - wizard points to the square an readies a scorhing ray if the BBEG tries to cast a spell.
There is so many ways a readied action can fail. Maybe no player tries to cast a spell they just assume it's some kind of trap and look for traps...
Baron vonBadssing - is better of going on the offensive, a readied action makes sense if he has a lot of minions that have inv as well - but if not... Better just cast the fireball and híde behind the sofa. Cleric cast inv purge - but the party still can't see the caster... Hmm must have been a trap...
|
|
Bah, it's the standard method of dealing with a caster who has spells you don't want him to cast. It also has a MUCH higher likelihood of preventing the spell from going off (Dispel Magic checks are not an easy roll to make)
Realistically a 5th level sorcerer/wizard with a 3grand rod of maximize will do 30 pts of damage with this fireball (avg DC = 16-18). with a successful reflex save the party takes 15 pts of damage (negligible really but enough to start a panic even at 5th level). The cleric at this point even with avg HP's (28) and failing the save will still be conscious and functional (as long as they didn't tank their Con or not put a few level bonuses in HP's).
It creates a panic without actually preventing any party member from contributing or surviving. This is wizard dueling 101, get used to it.
We are talking about the Players vs an NPC here though. Also talking about deliberatly trying to knock a player out of the game before they even get to act, just so the NPC can "be cool", rob them of the chance to actually use their power in a cool way (so that the NPC gets to instead). Your 30 damage fireball is still a DC 46 Concentration check, something they can not make (even maxed out) on a Nat 20. Realistically lookng at Hp between 30-40 ish, (also assuming they haven't actually done anything else before this point, taken no damag and cast no other spells in combat), but still not only did they both waste their powerful spell resource and the spell not go off, they and the party have also just taken 75+ish percent damage, before they get to act, with one less resource (they only get 1, maybe 2 for high Wis 3rd level spells) to actually even hope of changing that, which is literally going to be the entire combat failing to keep up wth the damage. It's setting a trap for the player, nothing more, (buring their strongest resorce for nothing, taking significant damage for something thy can not realistically do anything about, and then if they survive round one, any round two Area attack will probably TPK the party) there's no reason his second also maximized via the Rod Fireball or whatever wouldn't. That sounds really fun and interesting, right?
|
|
A. For BBEG who knows the party regularly uses invisibility purge to get past the invisibilty spell (per the OP's original statement) would definitely prepare for it. The readied action to cast a damaging spell when the opponent tries to cast purge (specifically purge since that's what you've been warned about) is entirely within SOP at this level of the game. Most players are routinely prepping readied actions to disrupt the BBEG caster, why can't they do it back to the players?
Also you might want to re-read see invisibility, it doesn't quite work how you think it does.
Yes, we're talking about A npc vs 4+ players. Unless he does something quickly to even the odds he's deader then disco by the 2nd round (3rd if they roll badly). As for knocking someone out of the game that's not possible with this tactic, best case they lose a round of actions, worst case they lose 2ish rounds.
As for losing 75% of health, well unless your party is nothing but wizards and clerics standing on top of each other someone is going to make the save or avoid it completely while the meatshields are going to laugh off that much damage and charge the caster if their competent or scatter and heal if their worried. Best case the party should be down 40% HP's on average, just in the range where the excitement begins but winning is nearly a foregone conclusion.
This is a panic inducing tactic, easily recovered from (a quick channel plus wand/potion negates most of the damage) and gives the BBEG a chance to actually use their invisibility/vanish to give the fight some duration (do you know anyone who enjoys a boss fight that's over in 2 rounds). Worst case it does drop someone it is mathematically impossible for anyone to die from this tactic before the boss is dead or your teammates save you unless the GM is being a jerk and gunning for that characters death or you just stand there doing nothing.
|
|
Levitate and Spiderclimb (he is a Wizard) are 2nd level spells that could easily be precast for an ambush, and can keep him out of reach. He also has Undead and other villian allies. Channel Energy will not do much to heal, it's far below the curve, and like I said, the Cleric isn't going to have that many resources to burn through, but they are probably going to need to go into constantly keeping the party alive.
I'm going to agree to disagree here.
|
|
Bows, ropes and grease pots are easy cures for all of those and I'm guessing you've never seen a channel focused cleric/paladin/oracle before.
But you appear to have decided that genius level BBEG using smart tactics is wrong/bad and nothing we can say will convince you otherwise. That's ok, we all play this game how we think it goes and if you're having fun that way kudos to you and happy gaming.