WBL and wizard spellbook

[Rickmeister]

Two questions that I could use your feedback on.

Question 1:
This table is a guideline for wealth by level for the player characters..

Problem 1:
Old_char has ammassed gold and items, but some were (or are now) useless, and some items have been used.
New_char can optimize..

Problem 2:
Old_char has spend money (Kingmaker) to upgrade his domain and help his people. He is therefor below the curve.
New_char is 'exactly' on the curve...

Question 2:
New_wizard wants spells. There is a price but at level 9 he can basically by every spell from the BRB and APG, and hardly feel it..
How do other GM's deal with that? Roll the dice (% or amount of), or...

*puts piggybank on table, waiting for two cents*

[asthyril]

as far as question 2 is concerned, is it all that different than a cleric getting them all for free? i would think at 9th level it wouldn't be that much of an issue.

[Gauss]

I do not see a question in question 1. I am assuming the question is: is this a problem? The answer should be no unless the other PCs in the group are also low on wealth. In which case give the new PC the amount of wealth all of the other PCs have.

The 9th level wizard having a spellbook of every 0, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level spell in existance is not really an issue. It comes out of his cash. If he wants to spend money on spells so he has an answer to every question that is fine.

The real problem is if the player spends 10minutes looking through his spells to find the perfect spell to cast via Arcane Bond. IF this becomes a problem give the player a reasonable amount of time to act. Failure to act in the reasonable period of time should result in a delayed action. Check with him after the next player/monster has taken its turn. If he is still not ready he continues to delay. Repeat until he acts.

- Gauss

[Defraeter]

Question 1:
Wealth by level is a guideline, and you must include "consumables" (potions, scrolls, wands, RPG actions (increase domain), etc...) in your calculation.

Table: Character Wealth by Level can also be used to budget gear for characters starting above 1st level, such as a new character created to replace a dead one. Characters should spend no more than half their total wealth on any single item. For a balanced approach, PCs that are built after 1st level should spend no more than 25% of their wealth on weapons, 25% on armor and protective devices, 25% on other magic items, 15% on disposable items like potions, scrolls, and wands, and 10% on ordinary gear and coins. Different character types might spend their wealth differently than these percentages suggest; for example, arcane casters might spend very little on weapons but a great deal more on other magic items and disposable items.

So for a 9th character, his wealth should be around 46000 GP, but "about" 10 to 20% has vanished into "consumables" like potions, scrolls and wands, or other actions.

When there is the death of a PC, i calculate the wealth that is removed from the game and give the same to the new character.
If the alive PC plunder the dead one, i give only what is effectively removed from play (i.e less the PC's plunder): so the players regulate themselves very fastly...
Sometimes, i give a little more (to regulate), it depends on the game and on my players.

I try to consult all my players for a case like that: often they are more sensible than you!!!
Except if yours players are "newbies" and don't know, or if are just "god's killer munchkin", a player has no interest in an unbalanced game.

However, "give too much" at your players is not "bad", you can always give a little less after: it is more a scale for a GM than a true rule.
Some parties need "more wealth" than others, some less, it depends how they play.
Remember Kingmaker is not so hard for encounter, they often have just one or 2 encounters by day.

Question 2:
Outside spells gained by level, a spell costs a scroll +writting in the spellbook.
- base price of a scroll: p 490. So level of the spell x creator caster level x 25 (see table p 491). Don't forget to include material component cost.
- writting in the spellbook: table p 219

ex: to have spell stoneskin wizard lvl 4, it costs:
scroll = base price 700gp +component cost 250gp = 1000gp
writting in spellbook: 160gp
TOTAL COST= 1160gp

ex: telekinesis (wizard 5)
scroll= base price 1125gp +component cost 0 = 1125gp
writting= 250gp
TOTAL COST= 1375gp

Your 9th player will have free: 2 spells for 5th, 4 spells for 4th, 4 spells for 3th, etc...
If he wants to buy all the spells, i doubt he'll have enough money.

If the player has recovered the spellbook of his "former and dead PC", you must deduct it from his wealth... of course.

[RumpinRufus]

I think the key word is "guideline". It's completely up to the GM's discretion. If you think WBL would give a player an advantage over the current party members, give them less than WBL (a better guideline would be averaging the wealth-per-player of the current party.)

I just joined an 11th level campaign in progress, but it's a low treasure campaign, so I came in with less than 20,000 worth of gear. It's less than a quarter of WBL, but it's on par with the party.

[Kolokotroni]

This is one of the many reasons I hate the wealth = power wealth system we have. Its actually really difficult as a dm to track this stuff.

My advice figure out where you want your players to be wealth wise and then make sure they are there. If you want them close to the wbl amounts, then random treasure is not the answer. Much of it will be useless and either sold or fed into the kingdom. Increase the amount of treasure given out, heck you have an easy way to do it by having the kingdom produce resources your pcs can make use of. (Owner of the magic shop gifts the general with a new sword for instance). Make sure this is specific gear tailored for the characters that are under the wealth level you want.

If you like where the players are, and the problem is the new player having too much, let them have less. Tell them they only get 60% of wbl and have to roll for availability of items, or however you would normally give out treasure.

Personally I prefer the former to the latter but its up to you. Your task as a gm is to keep it even. The rest is up to you.

[LazarX]

I only use the WBL as a guideline for starting new characters modifying it as appropriate. Once that's done, it essentially gets thrown out, never to be seen again in that campaign.

[Gauss]

Defrater, WBL consumables do not 'vanish'.

Table 12-5 Gives out 30-40% more treasure than the WBL table 12-4. Eventually that excess is lost through consumables, sold equipment etc. Whenever you look at WBL that is the amount of treasure a player should have at that level. The consumables used over the course of a characters life are NOT removed from the WBL amount. The consumable part is how much of the character's treasure should be in consumables right then and there.

Death is the same, it gets slowly replaced and within a level or two they should be back up to full WBL totals.

Regarding spells, spells do not have to be purchased via scrolls. They can buy them directly from other wizards for far less money than a scroll. This is covered on CRB p219. For a level 4 spell the cost is 160gp + 80gp = 240gp. Wizards are supposed to have a lot of spells in their spellbooks. It is the main reason to play a wizard over a sorcerer.

- Gauss

[Defraeter]

Gauss wrote:

Defrater, WBL consumables do not 'vanish'.

Table 12-5 Gives out 30-40% more treasure than the WBL table 12-4. Eventually that excess is lost through consumables, sold equipment etc. Whenever you look at WBL that is the amount of treasure a player should have at that level. The consumables used over the course of a characters life are NOT removed from the WBL amount. The consumable part is how much of the character's treasure should be in consumables right then and there.

Death is the same, it gets slowly replaced and within a level or two they should be back up to full WBL totals.

Regarding spells, spells do not have to be purchased via scrolls. They can buy them directly from other wizards for far less money than a scroll. This is covered on CRB p219. For a level 4 spell the cost is 160gp + 80gp = 240gp. Wizards are supposed to have a lot of spells in their spellbooks. It is the main reason to play a wizard over a sorcerer.

- Gauss

Yes effectively. But i noticed that when playing Adventure Path, my players were always under the WBL amount.

So i always has to regulate... the more important is that the players are about at the level of WBL amount.

And they can buy to another wizard if they can find one, if this wizard allows that, if he has the spell that the player want, if... if...
and "Rare and unique spells might cost significantly more."...if you find someone able to cast them. And in Golarion, it's not as easy as said.
It depends how you lead your campaign, and how the NPC interact with players. And there aren't in each village or city a NPC wizard who "pop up with the good level and spell and is friendly" just for the need of a player.

[Tar-Tar]

SRD wrote:

A wizard can also add a spell to his book whenever he encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard's spellbook.

The wizard doesn't have to buy scrolls, he can copy spellbooks instead, which doesn't cost that much. Link to the rules on that.

[Gauss]

Defraeter: not all APs are that way. CoT gives out rediculous amounts. I had to majorly tone it down.

- Gauss

[Riuken]

In terms of old_pc wealth vs new_pc wealth, the old_pc should have about the appropriate WBL when he/she hits a new level (or sometime around then). When I design a game, I look at the PCs' current levels, take the WBL for the next level up and subtract the WBL for their level, and multiply that number by 1.5. That is the value of the treasure I plan for them to aquire before the next level. Multiply that number by the number of characters and you have a trasure budget for the next level. 150% of the difference seems to account pretty well for the loss of wealth from consumables, selling losses, and spell casting costs (restorations, raise dead, attonement, etc.). The percentage will change based on how much you design the gear for the PCs (reducing sell loss), how many consumables you give, how much you reduce wealth by adventure (sunders, stat drain, negative levels, etc.), and how far off from WBL they were for the past level (possibly by selling consumables instead of buying more).

As for the other part, buying spells isn't cheap. The only reliable source is scrolls. You also have to pay a scribe cost. Additionally there is a failure chance (or not, depending on your spellcraft). Sure a level 9 wizard could have all the level 1 spells. But he/she surely couldn't afford to have all the level 5 spells. A wizard who has been playing from 1 to 9 has probably had a few chances to learn new spells from the spellbooks of defeated enemy wizards (or even blood transcription on sorcerers etc.), which is cheaper than by scroll (which is what I assume for newly created characters).

Basically, the goal of all of this is to ensure there is not a monetary advantage to getting a character killed and rerolling.

[LazarX]

Defraeter wrote:

So i always has to regulate... the more important is that the players are about at the level of WBL amount.

Incorrect. It's only important that the players have what they need to survive and progress in the campaign. For some campaigns the number will be considerably below the WBL table, for others it might be above. It varies tremendously on the nature and the tone of the campaign world.

[Defraeter]

LazarX wrote:

Defraeter wrote:

So i always has to regulate... the more important is that the players are about at the level of WBL amount.

Incorrect. It's only important that the players have what they need to survive and progress in the campaign. For some campaigns the number will be considerably below the WBL table, for others it might be above. It varies tremendously on the nature and the tone of the campaign world.

For AP, before playing, i have to add all the wealth in book and see if it's under or over the curve????

Is there a "note" in the AP which gives this information?

I think Paizo is used to write scenario and adventures... How could i know if they have made an AP "rich" or "poor"?
And what are theirs reasons for this choice?

[Gauss]

Unfortunately AP design regarding wealth seems to be all over the map. Some APs are under, others are way way over. This is why the GM should go through and adjust things to suit himself and the group he GMs.

- Gauss

[LazarX]

Defraeter wrote:

LazarX wrote:

Defraeter wrote:

So i always has to regulate... the more important is that the players are about at the level of WBL amount.

Incorrect. It's only important that the players have what they need to survive and progress in the campaign. For some campaigns the number will be considerably below the WBL table, for others it might be above. It varies tremendously on the nature and the tone of the campaign world.

For AP, before playing, i have to add all the wealth in book and see if it's under or over the curve????

Is there a "note" in the AP which gives this information?

I think Paizo is used to write scenario and adventures... How could i know if they have made an AP "rich" or "poor"?
And what are theirs reasons for this choice?

Again it does NOT matter if an AP is "rich" or "poor". IF the PC's have what they need to finish assuming all other things being equal, than it's all good. Part of the art of being a GM is making on the fly adjustments as needed. That was a mandatory skill in the old days as TSR never came up with things such as a WBL table, only treasure types tables for monsters that had LOTS of random variation.

[LazarX]

Gauss wrote:

Defraeter: not all APs are that way. CoT gives out rediculous amounts. I had to majorly tone it down.

- Gauss

As I understand it the design assumption of COT was that players would miss most of the treasure drops, thus the inflated amounts.

[Gauss]

LazarX, I understood that too but it does not mesh with what actually happens. Many of the drops I am referencing are drops which the players cannot fail to hit. One such drop gave out over 3-4x the groups current WBL. Even after I toned it down the players were ahead by 1 level on WBL.

- Gauss