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This isn't a proposed change to fix the Monk for everyone, nor do I think it should be an Errata for the Monk. It's a list of changes that I've been gathering over time for my own personal 'fix' for the Monk. Some of them are easy to recognize as having been floating around for awhile, but I've tried to put my own twist on each ability as I saw fit.
Some of these changes replace the equivalent in the book, while others simply alter or add to them in some way.
Slow Fall (alters): Slow Fall can be used at any time, not just when in arms reach of a wall.
Ki Pool (alters): A Monk’s Ki Pool is equal to his 3 + half his Monk level + his Wisdom score.
A Monk may spend 1 Ki Point from his pool as a swift action to move half his movement speed. This movement can take place at any point in his turn, even during a Flurry of Blows except for when the Monk takes a double move or more during his turn.
A Monk may spend 1 Ki Point from his Ki Pool as a swift action to gain a bonus on Combat Maneuver Bonus and Combat Maneuver Defense equal to half his Monk level for a number of rounds equal to his Wisdom modifier.
Ki Strike (replaces): A Monk’s Ki Strike, instead of being treated as Adamantine, Magic, Lawful etc, adds a +1 enhancement bonus to Unarmed Strike attack rolls for every 4 Monk levels he has, up to +5 at 20th level. This enhancement bonus overcomes DR just as a normal enhancement bonuses do, but it does not add to the Monk’s damage.
A Monk may also spend 1 Ki Point as a swift action to overcome 1 point of Damage Reduction or Hardness per Monk level. If the Damage Reduction is typeless (DR 5/-) or has two components (DR 10/Piercing and Good), then the Monk only overcomes 1 point for every two Monk levels he possesses. The duration of this ability lasts for 3 rounds plus one additional round per Monk level.
Unarmed Strike/Monk Weapons (alters): A Monk is proficient with all special Monk Weapons. In addition, at 5th level, a Monk may add his Wisdom score as a bonus to his attack rolls that stacks with his strength score (or Dexterity if using Weapon Finesse). He must still use his Strength score for damage, however. A Monk may only add his Wisdom to his attack roll when unarmored and unencumbered and when using a special Monk weapon or Unarmed Strike.
Wholeness of Body (replaces): Wholeness of Body only costs a swift action and heals 2d8 + his Monk level for 1 Ki Point. If the Monk spends 2 Ki Points, he may heal another creature as a Standard Action.
Diamond Soul (alters): A Monk may suppress his Spell Resistance as a Standard Action and may keep it suppressed until he spends a Standard Action to raise it again. When a Monk’s spell resistance is suppressed, he gains a bonus on his saving throws against spells or spell-like abilities equal to +1 for every 4 Monk levels he possesses. This bonus on his saves only applies only against spells and spell-like abilities he would normally be granted a save against and that allow spell resistance, such as fireball. In addition, when his spell resistance is suppressed, a Monk may also make a save (without the bonus) against any spell or spell-like ability that doesn’t normally allow a save, as long as it allows spell resistance, such as enervation. In such cases as when a Monk may make a save that normally wouldn’t be allowed, the default save is a Will save.
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I like to think most of the changes are rather subtle in their own way.
There are some things I'd like to point out. The Monk is gaining both Wisdom to attack, and an enhancement to attack as well, which stacks with his normal ability score for attacking. This may seem like a lot, but I'd like to point out neither the Wisdom, nor the Enhancement add to the damage. So he will be hitting more often, but his damage will still be smaller.
He'll be able to cut through DR fairly regularly, thanks to the changes to his Ki Strike, but damage he deals will still be rather small, but it will be consistent.
He retains usefulness of his Combat Maneuvers at higher levels, because he has the option of adding half his Monk level to both his CMB and CMD for a number of rounds.
There are quite a few changes here, some more pronounced than others, but overall, I think it fixes a lot of the issues a Monk faces.
I'd like to hear anyone's thoughts on these proposed changes if I could.
[Edit] Figured I'd add a 'Break this Fix' along with everyone else. Bandwagons A-Ho!
Fixed some missing words.
Interesting.
A lot of these are peripheral issues to the main problems the monk has: hitting and bypassing DR.
Ki-strike: This is good, but it will still lag behind the bonuses that other martial classes will have on their magic weapons. In fact the monk is better off with the AoMF at 17th level you can afford a +5 one, while the martials have had +5 from 14th or 15th level. I would scale it faster, myself, if the idea is to keep up.
The DR bypass ki ability looks familiar ;) I like it, it works, but I'd simplify it a little more. It gives the monk a special 'thing' that makes him useful to any party, he may not do much damage but he can damage anything.
With ki-pool, I suggest either making it score at the level of bardic song and having all abilities go per round, or leave it as is.
Unarmed strike: Why does the monk have to suck until he hits 5th level? What is broken about him getting the ability to actually hit things at 1st level?
Wholeness of Body: Does this do anything a potion wouldn't? When you have other stuff to spend ki on in combat? It's better, but only by dint of the original ability truly sucking.
Diamond Body: I would either make it a save bonus or spell resistance, having it either/or makes it pretty powerful, and it's already more powerful.
I don't see any of these options as broken, myself, except maybe the Diamond Body option, but I'm awaiting other feedback on the Wis-to-hit option where I presented in my own thread.
Interesting.
A lot of these are peripheral issues to the main problems the monk has: hitting and bypassing DR.
Well, I tried to make changes to overcome that, but I figure, if I'm changing the Monk class, I should change some other things as well.
Ki-strike: This is good, but it will still lag behind the bonuses that other martial classes will have on their magic weapons. In fact the monk is better off with the AoMF at 17th level you can afford a +5 one, while the martials have had +5 from 14th or 15th level. I would scale it faster, myself, if the idea is to keep up.
The DR bypass ki ability looks familiar ;) I like it, it works, but I'd simplify it a little more. It gives the monk a special 'thing' that makes him useful to any party, he may not do much damage but he can damage anything.
I didn't want to make Ki Strike too 'powerful' in that the Monk gets the ability to overcome DR for free. I wanted him to still have to rely on spending resources to overcome DR via Ki Points. Consider something like a Demon or Devil at 12th level which can often have things like Cold Iron/Silver and Good for DR. A +3 weapon only overcome the material, they still need to have an aligned weapon to overcome the DR. A Monk could spend a Ki Point, and overcome both of the conditions, negating the DR of the Demon. I tried to tie both versions of Ki Strike into the 'exploit enemy weaknesses' thing a Monk is described as doing.
As for the familiarity, well, I've had a similar idea floating around forever, I just couldn't seem to put it into words very well. I liked the way you presented yours, but I did't like that it limits it to one person per point of Ki spent. At the same time, I felt overcoming all DR so easily was too powerful. So I tossed on the limiters for typeless and for two conditions. I feel the limitations brought it back under the power curve.
With ki-pool, I suggest either making it score at the level of bardic song and having all abilities go per round, or leave it as is.
I didn't want to have too much Ki available to the Monk, but at the same time, he tends to eat through it. I reasoned that giving some of his abilities a duration, would mitigate that some what. The ones I foresee being used the most in Combat, are DR Penetration, Extra Attack, CMB/CMD Bonus and the Swift Movement. Spending a point on the DR Penetration would mitigate the need for that extra attack every round, as you'll be punching through DR more easily. Anyone who tries to go for the extra attack each round, is going to be burning through their Ki quickly regardless of how much we give them. I want the Monk to be good, but still be a resource management class. Kind of the half-way point between martial and caster.
Unarmed strike: Why does the monk have to suck until he hits 5th level? What is broken about him getting the ability to actually hit things at 1st level?
The reason I bumped the Wisdom to hit to 5th level is it stacks with your Strength or Dexterity. Also, I wanted to keep people from 'dipping' Monk for the bonus. At 5th level, it's no longer a dip, considering that you only get 20 levels and 1/4 of them just went to Monk. Any other class that relies on Wisdom would be losing out on 2-3 spell levels or more. The only person I could reasonably see taking 5 levels of Monk for this, is the Inquisitor, but even then, he'd be losing a lot of abilities.
In my own personal experience, Monks are just fine up to about 5th level, and that's why I chose that level specifically.
Wholeness of Body: Does this do anything a potion wouldn't? When you have other stuff to spend ki on in combat? It's better, but only by dint of the original ability truly sucking.
Well, for one thing, it allows for swift action healing, similar to that of the Paladin, which is what used for a comparison. At 7th level, Wholeness of Body heals an average of 16 points of damage (4.5 * 2 + 7) while the Paladin's Lay on Hands heals an average of 10.5 (3.5 * 3). The difference is that LoH removes status effects too. As the two classes increase in level, LoH actually outpaces WoB. At 20th, WoB heals 2d8 + 20 averaging 29, while LoH averages 10d6, averaging 35 + removing conditions.
I wanted the Monk to have a viable method of healing, keeping him somewhat independent, but not having it so good that he's a God in combat. His real limiter is his Ki Pool, which is what keeps it from being too good. His Ki is going to be spent on a variety of things, from DR to jumping high, so his potential healing is great, but is actual healing will be a lot less. Where as a Paladin uses LoH for one thing only, healing. LoH doesn't power smite, or weapon bond, or spells, simply healing.
With that in mind, I could almost see an argument to increase the healing to 3d8 or 4d8, or to increase the Ki Pool, but I think there is a fairly happy medium right now, when you take in some factors like the Monk being able to focus more on Dexterity now, by taking an Agile Amulet and Weapon Finesse, which will allow him to really boost his AC to high levels.
Diamond Body: I would either make it a save bonus or spell resistance, having it either/or makes it pretty powerful, and it's already more powerful.
Honestly, I really don't think Diamond Soul would be too big of a deal in the long run. I think, if the Monk were going up against lots of mooks with spells or spell-like abilities, he'd run with his SR up, but against the BBEG, he'd take the Save Bonus option instead. I just don't see it as all that large of a power boost, considering Monks normally make saves in the first place. The biggest boost, I think, is the ability to make a Save for spells that don't normally allow one. However, if the bonus on the other saving throws is too high, I don't see a problem with scaling it back some, like maybe +1 per 5 Monk levels instead.
I don't see any of these options as broken, myself, except maybe the Diamond Body option, but I'm awaiting other feedback on the Wis-to-hit option where I presented in my own thread.
Neither do I, which I think is important. I want to make the Monk viable in my own games, without shunning other classes. I think the proposed changes would really help him fit the role of mobile striker easier, or combat scout, or something to that effect.
[Edit] Given some more thought, I don't see any problem with increasing the Ki Pool to 3 + his Monk level + his Wisdom score.
The reason I bumped the Wisdom to hit to 5th level is it stacks with your Strength or Dexterity.
This I didn't pick up on, and it is powerful. Consider, my monk at 5th level in the last game was at 20 Dex and 18 Wisdom, with Weapon Finesse. That's a whopping +9 stat bonus to hit just at 5th level. Now I know the monk needs a boost to hit, but this is way over the top.
Putting it at 5th prevents it being a dip, but at the same time it's still way good for what it does. Smite adds charisma bonus, but only on limited uses per day. Favoured enemy only effects certain things. This is general on a monk's main attacks all the time. The only other 'always on' options are capped at around +4...this could start at +4 and rise from there.
Wisdom instead of another stat is fine. Wisdom plus another stat is way busted.
The reason I bumped the Wisdom to hit to 5th level is it stacks with your Strength or Dexterity.This I didn't pick up on, and it is powerful. Consider, my monk at 5th level in the last game was at 20 Dex and 18 Wisdom, with Weapon Finesse. That's a whopping +9 stat bonus to hit just at 5th level. Now I know the monk needs a boost to hit, but this is way over the top.
Putting it at 5th prevents it being a dip, but at the same time it's still way good for what it does. Smite adds charisma bonus, but only on limited uses per day. Favoured enemy only effects certain things. This is general on a monk's main attacks all the time. The only other 'always on' options are capped at around +4...this could start at +4 and rise from there.
Wisdom instead of another stat is fine. Wisdom plus another stat is way busted.
Yes, but the very same Monk also won't be getting a lot of static damage without bumping up his main attack stat.
Your monk, for instance, would have a +13 to hit at 5th level, but only get his dice roll (unless you have an Agile amulet) for damage. Sure, you'll be hitting a lot, but not hitting very hard.
I mean, sure a guy that tanks everything to bump Strength and Wisdom through the roof will have a good attack roll, but that's all he'll really be able to do. With his Int tanked, he won't have much via the way of skills, and with his Cha in the pits, role playing will be a little hard.
The way I see it, adding Wisdom to Strength, allows the Monk to bump his Intelligence or Charisma more, letting him play more of a skill monkey, that works well in or out of combat.
Remember too, this isn't a fix designed for the masses, it's my own personal fix that I'll be introducing into my home games. Some of them are already being actively used, but I decided to go out a little more and fix some other things too.
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A Monk may also spend 1 Ki Point as a swift action to overcome 1 point of Damage Reduction or Hardness per Monk level. If the Damage Reduction is typeless (DR 5/-) or has two components (DR 10/Piercing and Good), then the Monk only overcomes 1 point for every two Monk levels he possesses. The duration of this ability lasts for 3 rounds plus one additional round per Monk level.
i like this very much. if it isn't original, it is getting stolen again. except that i might change the duration...
what about as a full round action that lasted 1 hour? the idea is to get around bookkeeping but go longer than 1 round...
A Monk may also spend 1 Ki Point as a swift action to overcome 1 point of Damage Reduction or Hardness per Monk level. If the Damage Reduction is typeless (DR 5/-) or has two components (DR 10/Piercing and Good), then the Monk only overcomes 1 point for every two Monk levels he possesses. The duration of this ability lasts for 3 rounds plus one additional round per Monk level.i like this very much. if it isn't original, it is getting stolen again. except that i might change the duration...
what about as a full round action that lasted 1 hour? the idea is to get around bookkeeping but go longer than 1 round...
That tends to actually increase the bookkeeping as you now have to count the number of rounds it takes to get anywhere or do anything.
If you want to make it longer, but have less bookkeeping for your own games, I'd suggest making it last a number of minutes equal to your wisdom modifier. It's not quite as long as an hour, but longer than what is currently proposed.
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Isn't the easy way to fix the monk is to make them full BAB and replace flurry with the two-weapon fighting chain at the right levels that only work with monk weapons and unarmed strikes. At 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, 20th their unarmed strikes get a +1 enhancment bonus and like weapons bypass DR of equivlent weapon.
Dotting. I will comment later.
MA
@Tels
good point.
what about constant so long as Ki is 1+?
(my monk has 'core' Ki - half level plus WIS - and i like it that way)
Overcoming all DR all of the time is way too powerful an ability. Forcing them to spend a limited resource helps control it's power of such abilities.
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you are probably right. but, with anywhere from 0 to 15 Ki through the course of a 20-level career (at half plus WIS), having to maintain 1 point of Ki is a tax on such a finite resource.
how about this:
while a monk retains at least 1 point of Ki, he may bypass DR equal to his level with an unarmed strike; for untyped of double-typed DR, he may bypass half this amount.
further, as a swift action, he may expend 1 point of Ki to double his effective monk level for the purposes of bypassing DR for 1 round.
i certainly think this ability would be over-powered for another class. for the monk, i am not so sure...
Keep in mind that as your level increases, your ability to extract the most from your Ki increases as well. At 4th level, you can overcome DR for 7 rounds (3 + Monk level 4th). That's 7 rounds of Flurry if you so choose.
At 20th level, you overcome DR for 23 rounds. At 10th level, it's 13 round. There will be times you spend a Ki Point and it lasts the entire combat.
There was another thread around here on the subject of 'average length of combat' and it generally seemed to be between 3 and 10 rounds is average. At 4th level, your DR penetration last for the majority of average combat lengths. Granted, it could take longer for BBEGs, but that's not a big issue.
Remember, the Monks Ki Pool is a limited resource, just like a spell casters spells, a Magus' Arcana, a Paladin's smite etc. You have to learn to manage that resource just like any other. If you blow all your highest level spells in the first combat of the day, then you've just used up what could be your most powerful abilities on what is likely to be relatively minor combat rounds.
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The Ki to ovrcome DR should be limited to 2 or 3 rounds at a time, no more. Also, what about requiring a Ki Point per type of DR to overcome?
So like you said a creature with Silver/Cold Iron AND Good would require 2 Ki points, last for 3 rounds, and overcome 1 point of DR per level/Half Level. I would go more towards half Monk level, personally, or honestly make it level dependant to avoid extra math. For example:
Perhaps a level 1-9 Monk auomatically overcomes DR 5
level 10-14 DR 10
level 15-19 overcomes DR 15
with 20th level Monks overcoming all DR values except DR/Epic
(for any random monsters that have odd values or 3rd party/homebrew monsters that might go beyond DR 15). When I say overcomes DR, I mean more in the sense of effectiely lowering the creatures DR by that amount (for their attacks only), so even if they can not completely overcome the DR, they still deal more damage than they otherwise would. In essence, a Monk able to overcome DR 5 attacking a monster that has DR 15, effectively treats that monster as only having DR 10.
A Monk may also spend 1 Ki Point as a swift action to overcome 1 point of Damage Reduction or Hardness per Monk level. If the Damage Reduction is typeless (DR 5/-) or has two components (DR 10/Piercing and Good), then the Monk only overcomes 1 point for every two Monk levels he possesses. The duration of this ability lasts for 3 rounds plus one additional round per Monk level.i like this very much. if it isn't original, it is getting stolen again. except that i might change the duration...
what about as a full round action that lasted 1 hour? the idea is to get around bookkeeping but go longer than 1 round...
Thank you, feel free to steal!
I wanted to make it useful but not overpowered. If it's longer than rounds, make it a separate class power and have it always on, that definitely saves on bookkeeping. I prefer swift action to activate and then let it run for a combat, myself.
I did think about set amounts, Devil's Advocate, just as you describe and then thought...why complicate it with a lot of words? Just make it bypassed points of DR=level and have done. Then every level counts, because even if you are 7th level, fighting something with DR 10 takes it to effectively DR 3.
I thought about set amounts, but I'm not a big fan of abrupt increases in power. I like the idea of the more organic growth of overcoming DR, instead of huge jumps like going from DR 5 to DR 10.
I didn't touch on it, but I'm not a fan of the Immunity to poison, disease etc that come with being a Monk because it's very abrupt. If there was a gradual increase of resistances then Immunity, I would like it a lot more as it makes it 'feel' like the Monk is getting better and better control of his body and his Ki.
That's why I went with the 1/level DR mechanic that Dabbler put into words. It makes it feel like the Monk is slowly getting better and better at using his Ki; his powers last longer and they work better.
If I could re-write the whole of Pathfinder, I would have a lot of mechanics change more gradually than they currently do.
@ Tels: I'm going to use your changes to the monk in my campaign, it looks solid and is just what I was looking for. Thanks.
Well thank you, let me know how it turns out. None of my players are wanting to play a Monk right now, so I haven't really had a chance to test it out.
Slow Fall (alters): Slow Fall can be used at any time, not just when in arms reach of a wall.
Has a bit of a flying squirrel feel to it.
I likes it!
Slow Fall (alters): Slow Fall can be used at any time, not just when in arms reach of a wall.Has a bit of a flying squirrel feel to it.
I likes it!
The reason I changed it, is most of the time when you're falling (in my experience) you're not actually near a wall.
If you use the original Slow Fall, then you can't slow your descent if you're falling near vines, or a tree, or a rope etc. You can only slow your descent using a wall.
This way, you'll always be able to slow your descent. Personally, I like to think of the Monk Class as kind of like paratroopers. A lightly armed and armored warrior capable of sneaking around behind enemy lines that is able to independently sustain itself for some time, causing chaos and disorder for the frontline troops to take advantage of.
There's still the issue that the monk relies on a flurry to do any damage, and that means a full attack. Which means that he's not taking much advantage of his mobility.
How about:
At 2nd level, a monk gains Vital Strike as a bonus feat for unarmed attacks and attacks with monk weapons. At 9th level, this becomes Improved Vital Strike. At 15th level, this becomes Greater Vital Strike.
Vital Strike works quite well with unarmed attacks. At 2nd level this is +3.5 damage (+4.5 with a temple sword); at 9th level it's +11; at 15th it's +21; at 20th it's +33. Meaningful but by no means excessive.
Heck, even allowing a monk a +5 break on the BAB requirement for the VS chain instead of a bonus feat would do the job.
I write from admittedly limited experience - TaeKwonDo red belt - which makes me consider that a flying kick does a whole lot more damage than a standing one.
Alternatively you might require that the monk move at least 10 feet to activate this effect.
There's still the issue that the monk relies on a flurry to do any damage, and that means a full attack. Which means that he's not taking much advantage of his mobility.
How about:
At 2nd level, a monk gains Vital Strike as a bonus feat for unarmed attacks and attacks with monk weapons. At 9th level, this becomes Improved Vital Strike. At 15th level, this becomes Greater Vital Strike.Vital Strike works quite well with unarmed attacks. At 2nd level this is +3.5 damage (+4.5 with a temple sword); at 9th level it's +11; at 15th it's +21; at 20th it's +33. Meaningful but by no means excessive.
Heck, even allowing a monk a +5 break on the BAB requirement for the VS chain instead of a bonus feat would do the job.
I write from admittedly limited experience - TaeKwonDo red belt - which makes me consider that a flying kick does a whole lot more damage than a standing one.
Alternatively you might require that the monk move at least 10 feet to activate this effect.
Sneaking a few moments to respond to this. One of my changes was to allow a Monk to spend a Ki Point to move up to half his speed as a swift action. The movement could take place at anytime, even during a Flurry of Blows.
So one could move, spend a Ki point to gain a boost on the movement, then strike once. Or he could make a full attack and get a partial move at any point in those attacks. Or he could do a double move, and get a little extra movement.
A human monk at 8th level has a movement of 50 ft and 4 attacks. Let's say his first two attacks hit and dropped an enemy, so he spends a Ki Point, and can move up to 25 ft as a swift action, to get in range of the next enemy for his remaining 2 attacks.