is there any reason other than feat tax that precise shot has the point-blank prereq?
in other words is it simply a mechanic to make it harder for ray casters and non-range focused players to make full use of a bow. or is there some other reason for it.
I am just running a game and considering house ruling that precise shot is a feat that can be taken on its own by a sorc using ray spells. but am not sure if that will unbalance in some way.
basically how important is it that point blank be a prereq for precise.
game ballancingly important or just a flavor feat tax
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PBS is a pretty good gateway feat in terms of what it provides in addition to being the foundation feat for ranged builds.
While I disagree that it's a taxing feat to take, I can't explain why it is a prerequisite for Precise Shot. In those cases when I can take Precise Shot without PBS, I always end up grabbing PBS later on.
The way I see it, PBS only works to a short distance, but in that range, your attacks are more precise and deadly (bonus to hit and damage). Thus, it makes sense that you first gain a little skill with precision aiming (PBS) before you gain a full measure of it (Precise Shot).
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To specifically answer your question, Blue, no, I can't see it as especially game breaking. A human can take the feat at first level, Rangers get the feat at second level for free if they choose the ranged combat style.
I don't have the greatest mind for balancing and therefor don't deviate from the rules much because I tend to get into messes that way, but this doesn't seem overly broken. My bigger question would be why would you not want Point Blank Shot? It only further enhances the mode of attack you're applying Precise Shot to.
It is definitely a tax, and while in 3rd edition it was frustrating and unnecessary, with the addition of things like Clustered Shots, it's getting closer and closer to justified in Pathfinder.
The real question is why PBS is a requirement for Far Shot. :-p
Re: the OP's question, I think it's a legitimate concern insofar as Precise Shot is an ideal level 1 feat for anyone with a bow. In my opinion, it's the most important archery feat in the game, followed closely by Improved Precise Shot. While it's not a bad feat (certainly stronger than Weapon Focus in the majority of scenarios), PBS provides such little combat utility compared to Precise Shot that it frequently seems unimportant.
to be honest the reason I am juggling this is because there is a Sorc in my game that uses rays.
However due to the penalty of shooting into combat he is often forced to use magic missile instead of scorching ray.
I am considering throwing him a bone and allowing him to take some kind of special training that lets him get precise without taking point blank.
I am just not sure if that will nerf him later down the road or possibly if giving the caster with powerful ranged touch attacks the benefit of precise with only 1 feat may be overpowering.
on a side note: would you give the caster +1 to damage on close range shots if he did take point blank?
However due to the penalty of shooting into combat he is often forced to use magic missile instead of scorching ray.
If he can cast level 2 spells, he's at least got +2 BAB and I would hope he has at least +2 Dex. That means even shooting into melee, he's still got a +0. Most enemies have touch ACs hovering in the 8-12 range, so I don't see that as especially bad.
I am just not sure if that will nerf him later down the road or possibly if giving the caster with powerful ranged touch attacks the benefit of precise with only 1 feat may be overpowering.
It will do neither, but the issue is this:
If he wants to be a ray-type caster, he should want the feats anyway. If he doesn't want to be a ray-type caster, he should just take a better spell.
on a side note: would you give the caster +1 to damage on close range shots if he did take point blank?
Absolutely, that's the point of the feat.
what if its not phisical damage.
for example what if its a spell that does 1d4 ability damage should it do d4+1? or d4 ability damage and `1 hitpoint
note +1 damge to hit points is minuscule compared to +1 ability damage.
also note... I am being a little facetious I would never let PBS add plus 1 to the damage effect of spells like ray of enfeeblement
It only affects HP damage.
At least those two feats can interact with each other, so this is a reasonable feat tax. A stupid or unfair feat tax is when you can't combine the feat you want with its prerequisite, like Spring Attack and Whirlwind Attack.
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The bonus of PBS only applies to ranged weapons, that is the main reason it doesn't seem very useful for casters. So no bonus to attack and damage for ray attacks (regardless of damage type).
** spoiler omitted **
Pretty sure you're wrong.
If a ray spell has a duration, it's the duration of the effect that the ray causes, not the length of time the ray itself persists.
If a ray spell deals damage, you can score a critical hit just as if it were a weapon. A ray spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit.
All four of those are valid choices.
Note that Weapon Specialization (ray) only adds to hit point damage caused by a ray attack that would normally deal hit point damage; it doesn't increase ability score damage or drain (such as the Dexterity drain from polar ray), penalties to ability scores (such as from ray of enfeeblement) or drain, negative levels (such as from enervation), or other damage or penalties from rays.
—Sean K Reynolds, 10/22/10 Back to Top
Yes. (See also this FAQ item for a similar question about rays and weapon feats.)
For example, a bard's inspire courage says it affects "weapon damage rolls," which is worded that way so don't try to add the bonus to a spell like fireball. However, rays are treated as weapons, whether they're from spells, a monster ability, a class ability, or some other source, so the inspire courage bonus applies to ray attack rolls and ray damage rolls.
The same rule applies to weapon-like spells such as flame blade, mage's sword, and spiritual weapon--effects that affect weapons work on these spells.
—Sean K Reynolds, 07/29/11
In previous editions (at least of D&D), rather than an accuracy penalty one had an equal chance (depending on the individual's size) of hitting nearby combatants. My guess is that the designers of 3.x wanted to preserve some of the tactical considerations forced by taking the penalty when party members engage the enemy in melee. Allowing the feat to be available at level 1 would prevent that from occurring.
Technically, you can get precise shot at 1st level. Humans of any class and fighters of any race can take both point blank shot and precise shot at 1st level. So I don't think the issue is really being able to do it at 1st level. Rather, being able to use a ranged weapon against a melee without a penalty is a substantial benefit, so it has been given a prerequisite rather than just allowing a single-feat cherry pick off the ranged attacks tree.
Well, I don't think the argument is that it shouldn't have a prerequisite, but rather that PBS is a worthy prerequisite for Precise Shot. It is the same way I feel about Spell Focus (conjuration) and Augment Summoning; as a summoner it sucks, I am not really going to be using that many conjuration spells that have saves. I digress.
But you should be aware that, By RAW,
PBS: states you get a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at ranges of up to 30 feet.
Cb 208, All offensive combat actions, even those that don’t damage
opponents, are considered attacks. Attempts to channel energy count as attacks if it would harm any creatures in the area. All spells that opponents resist with saving throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks.
Cb 462, Arrow Deflection: This shield protects the wielder as if he had the Deflect Arrows feat. Once per round when he would normally be struck by a ranged weapon, he can make a DC 20 Reflex save. If the ranged weapon (or piece of ammunition) has an enhancement bonus, the DC increases by that amount. If he succeeds, the shield deflects the weapon. He must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed. Attempting to deflect a ranged weapon doesn't count as an action. Exceptional ranged weapons, such as boulders hurled by giants or acid arrows, can't be deflected.
Faint abjuration; CL 5th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, shield; Price +2 bonus.
PBS affect ranged weapons. The Cb defines all offensive spells (not summons, for example) as attacks. Under arrow deflection from Cb you have a specific instance where an offensive spell is called out as an exceptional ranged weapon.
A spell that acts like a weapon, rolling an attack and dealing damage, is a weapon. Would you feel safe touching the hand of a wizard with a shocking grasp charged? Look at it like this, if you can sneak attack with it (if you roll an attack and fulfill all other requisites, attack spells can be used for sneak attack), and it is a ranged attack within 30 ft., PBS should apply.
So your casters do use it, by RAW.
That said, I wouldn't necessarily say it is the best prerequisite, but it does need one.
You could have another option rather than just give it to him without the prerequisite. Give him the training in game, give him the two feats, and tell him those fill his next two feat slots. The training allowed him to get them earlier (so you can give him the boost you feel he needs) but its not game breaking, since he is still going to use up his feats for it.
The real question is why PBS is a requirement for Far Shot. :-p
First learn stand, then learn fly, Daniel-San.