Because how did you target the invisible guy if you can't see him?
Especially if he's flying around inside a wide open room like you said.
The way the game works is that you can't target someone with total concealment, and being invisible grants total concealment.
Aiming a Spell
You must make choices about whom a spell is to affect or where an effect is to originate, depending on a spell's type. The next entry in a spell description defines the spell's target (or targets), its effect, or its area, as appropriate.
Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.
Command
School enchantment (compulsion) [language-dependent, mind-affecting]; Level cleric 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one living creature
Duration 1 round
Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yes
Since Command uses the "target" version of aiming you have to be able to see the target.
edit:Target based spells also don't go around walls.
just because I dont see him does not mean I dont know where he is.
It does in this game.
He used a move to draw an item and used his standard to be invisible. he couldnt move anymore that round(had to 5foot out of AOO range too). I knew exactly where he was... but even if I did not... a mind effecting language dependent spell giving one a command could be debated as to being able to work around corners or through windows provided the target hears it.
Your character wouldn't know that. All he'd know is that the guy was there, and then he was gone. He could've moved two feet to the left for all your character knows and so casting the spell at where he was before would be useless.
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The way the game works is that you can't target someone with total concealment, and being invisible grants total concealment.
Aiming a Spell
You must make choices about whom a spell is to affect or where an effect is to originate, depending on a spell's type. The next entry in a spell description defines the spell's target (or targets), its effect, or its area, as appropriate.
Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.
and that directly conflicts with this.
so which is it? when does one apply and when does the other apply? is this term just there no reason?Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It's like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it's not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.
You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.
The way the game works is that you can't target someone with total concealment, and being invisible grants total concealment.
Aiming a Spell
You must make choices about whom a spell is to affect or where an effect is to originate, depending on a spell's type. The next entry in a spell description defines the spell's target (or targets), its effect, or its area, as appropriate.
Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.
and that directly conflicts with this.
so which is it? when does one apply and when does the other apply? is this term just there no reason?Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It's like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it's not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.
You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.
I can't find anywhere in the spell description of Command that says it has line of effect.
See you left out the part that says "A line-shaped spell affects all creatures in squares through which the line passes."
Not all spells are line spells, and when a spell IS a line spell it says so. Like a dragon can shoot a line of acid or fire if it's the right type for it. Command just says it affects one living creature.
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Aiming a Spell
You must make choices about whom a spell is to affect or where an effect is to originate, depending on a spell's type. The next entry in a spell description defines the spell's target (or targets), its effect, or its area, as appropriate.
Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.
If the target of a spell is yourself (the Target line of the spell description includes “You”), you do not receive a saving throw, and spell resistance does not apply. The saving throw and spell resistance lines are omitted from such spells.
Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you're flat-footed or it isn't your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.
Some spells allow you to redirect the effect to new targets or areas after you cast the spell. Redirecting a spell is a move action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Effect: Some spells create or summon things rather than affecting things that are already present.
You must designate the location where these things are to appear, either by seeing it or defining it. Range determines how far away an effect can appear, but if the effect is mobile, after it appears it can move regardless of the spell's range.
Ray: Some effects are rays. You aim a ray as if using a ranged weapon, though typically you make a ranged touch attack rather than a normal ranged attack. As with a ranged weapon, you can fire into the dark or at an invisible creature and hope you hit something. You don't have to see the creature you're trying to hit, as you do with a targeted spell. Intervening creatures and obstacles, however, can block your line of sight or provide cover for the creature at which you're aiming.
If a ray spell has a duration, it's the duration of the effect that the ray causes, not the length of time the ray itself persists.
If a ray spell deals damage, you can score a critical hit just as if it were a weapon. A ray spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit.
Spread: Some effects, notably clouds and fogs, spread out from a point of origin, which must be a grid intersection. The effect can extend around corners and into areas that you can't see. Figure distance by actual distance traveled, taking into account turns the spell effect takes. When determining distance for spread effects, count around walls, not through them. As with movement, do not trace diagonals across corners. You must designate the point of origin for such an effect, but you need not have line of effect (see below) to all portions of the effect.
SpellAreas
Area: Some spells affect an area. Sometimes a spell description specifies a specially defined area, but usually an area falls into one of the categories defined below.
Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don't control which creatures or objects the spell affects. The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection. When determining whether a given creature is within the area of a spell, count out the distance from the point of origin in squares just as you do when moving a character or when determining the range for a ranged attack. The only difference is that instead of counting from the center of one square to the center of the next, you count from intersection to intersection.
You can count diagonally across a square, but remember that every second diagonal counts as 2 squares of distance. If the far edge of a square is within the spell's area, anything within that square is within the spell's area. If the spell's area only touches the near edge of a square, however, anything within that square is unaffected by the spell.
Burst, Emanation, or Spread: Most spells that affect an area function as a burst, an emanation, or a spread. In each case, you select the spell's point of origin and measure its effect from that point.
A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, including creatures that you can't see. It can't affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don't extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst's area defines how far from the point of origin the spell's effect extends.
An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell. Most emanations are cones or spheres.
A spread spell extends out like a burst but can turn corners. You select the point of origin, and the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions. Figure the area the spell effect fills by taking into account any turns the spell effect takes.
Cone, Cylinder, Line, or Sphere: Most spells that affect an area have a particular shape.
A cone-shaped spell shoots away from you in a quarter-circle in the direction you designate. It starts from any corner of your square and widens out as it goes. Most cones are either bursts or emanations (see above), and thus won't go around corners.
When casting a cylinder-shaped spell, you select the spell's point of origin. This point is the center of a horizontal circle, and the spell shoots down from the circle, filling a cylinder. A cylinder-shaped spell ignores any obstructions within its area.
A line-shaped spell shoots away from you in a line in the direction you designate. It starts from any corner of your square and extends to the limit of its range or until it strikes a barrier that blocks line of effect. A line-shaped spell affects all creatures in squares through which the line passes.
A sphere-shaped spell expands from its point of origin to fill a spherical area. Spheres may be bursts, emanations, or spreads.
Creatures: A spell with this kind of area affects creatures directly (like a targeted spell), but it affects all creatures in an area of some kind rather than individual creatures you select. The area might be a spherical burst, a cone-shaped burst, or some other shape.
Many spells affect “living creatures,” which means all creatures other than constructs and undead. Creatures in the spell's area that are not of the appropriate type do not count against the creatures affected.
Objects: A spell with this kind of area affects objects within an area you select (as Creatures, but affecting objects instead).
Other: A spell can have a unique area, as defined in its description.
(S) Shapeable: If an area or effect entry ends with “(S),” you can shape the spell. A shaped effect or area can have no dimension smaller than 10 feet. Many effects or areas are given as cubes to make it easy to model irregular shapes. Three-dimensional volumes are most often needed to define aerial or underwater effects and areas.
Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It's like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it's not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.
You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.
A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creature, or object to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst's center point, a cone-shaped burst's starting point, a cylinder's circle, or an emanation's point of origin).
An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell's line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell's line of effect.
The whole page copied directly from the book. That line spells part is waaay not part of the line of effect thing. Line of effect simply means there cant be anything solid in between you and the target. the part about specifically being able to single out a target should be an OR instead of an AND, as if you can see it and touch it to designate then that last line is redundant.
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The way the game works is that you can't target someone with total concealment, and being invisible grants total concealment.
Total Concealment: If you have line of effect to a target but not line of sight, he is considered to have total concealment from you. You can't attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance (instead of the normal 20% miss chance for an opponent with concealment).
You can't execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies.
where does it say that?
CRB page 214: "You must be able to see or touch the target..."
First paragraph.
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http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm
I just checked and this whole section is all cut&paste word for word from the 3.5 book.
This is CLEARLY one of those past edition artifacts that got looked over for editing.
@littlehewy
it says on that same page of the CRB that part about line of effect determining what you can target with spells. Read the description of a tower shield for a minute... it makes no sense unless you change that and to or in the first line of aiming a spell.
Shield, Tower
This massive wooden shield is nearly as tall as you are.
Benefit: In most situations, a tower shield provides the indicated shield bonus to your Armor Class. As a standard action, however, you can use a tower shield to grant you total cover until the beginning of your next turn. When using a tower shield in this way, you must choose one edge of your space. That edge is treated as a solid wall for attacks targeting you only. You gain total cover for attacks that pass through this edge and no cover for attacks that do not pass through this edge (see Combat). The shield does not, however, provide cover against targeted spells; a spellcaster can cast a spell on you by targeting the shield you are holding. You cannot bash with a tower shield, nor can you use your shield hand for anything else.
When employing a tower shield in combat, you take a –2 penalty on attack rolls because of the shield's encumbrance.
If you think you know where he is, why not cast glitterdust first? Then you'd know for sure and be able to target him.I am first level. Whole party is first level. Second encounter ever.
If the DM is throwing flying, invisible monsters at level 1, you flip the table and walk away.
Either your DM is a killer (I personally dislike them), a jerk (nobody likes those) or both. Nobody wins in this case.
Which Adventure Path would that be?
Just give me the name, damn it.
I don't care about spoilers because I'm not a metagaming munchkin.
There is an option to hide spoilers. He can use it.
Let's not forget the option to PM another person here as well.
dude you want logic? I can master the mystic forces of the universe to bend people to my will but I cant even attempt to affect a guy 5 feet from me that hasnt moved with any spells at all just cause hes invisible when a lowly bowman that pulls on a piece of cord and lets go still has a 50/50 chance of being able to pull off his thing normally? (no discredit to archers! one saved my ass in this battle)also note with the tower shield I can essentially target a guy on the other side of what is essentially a portable wall with a spell when I cant see him but I cant cast on someone I cant see with nothing in between us.
Sure, we can use logic here. Remember, regardless of your 'mastery' of the 'mystic forces of the universe', you still have to follow certain rules. You have to say the right words, make the right gestures, etc., or nothing happens at all and you're just a loony waving your arms and babbling.
In this particular case, the powers you're bringing to bear require that you point out specifically the mind you wish to affect with your mystic Command. When that person is invisible, there's nothing for you to focus on. Let's allow that you have correctly figured out the general location of your target - you still can't focus on them.
As for the tower shield example, there you do have something to focus on. When planted as per the tower shield's ability, the person behind is still holding on to it, so for the spell's purposes, you're targeting the being holding up that shield. If they'd managed to somehow wedge it in place and sneak off somewhere else without you noticing, then you'd be out of luck, but metaphysically, that shield and the person holding it may as well be the same thing.
That's my take on it.
If none of that makes sense to you, well... For balance purposes, the rules are still pretty clear. Can't see 'im, can't cast the spell. Bam.
dude you want logic? I can master the mystic forces of the universe to bend people to my will but I cant even attempt to affect a guy 5 feet from me that hasnt moved with any spells at all just cause hes invisible when a lowly bowman that pulls on a piece of cord and lets go still has a 50/50 chance of being able to pull off his thing normally? (no discredit to archers! one saved my ass in this battle)also note with the tower shield I can essentially target a guy on the other side of what is essentially a portable wall with a spell when I cant see him but I cant cast on someone I cant see with nothing in between us.
Your mastery of the mystic forces of the universe don't mean jack diddly when you don't know where to direct those forces.
Since invisibility goes away as soon as you take an offensive action, yes, it gives you a great deal of defenses.
And there are a lots of ways around invisibility, especially if you are a magic user.
Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.
If someone is invisible, you cannot see them.
However - and this probably is NOT RAW - if it was my game and a player really really wanted to use Command and they thought they knew where the invisible enemy was, I would let someone direct the spell via touch. This would require you also make a touch attack against the invisible opponent (assuming that you can reach them) and you would have the normal 50% miss chance associated with a hitting an invisible character.
Of course, determining the hex an invisible character is in is a move action and a DC 20 Perception roll.
Some spells need line of sight. Some spells need line of effect. Most need both. A few don't need either. Is this confusing?
With my earlier post I wasn't passing judgement on the rule that you must be able to see or touch the specific target of a spell, I was merely being helpful by pointing out the rules as written.
The question was asked, "Where does it say that?" I just gave the reference.
Happy gaming!
Ugh fine.
** Campaign spoiler omitted **
You should be at least level 2 by that fight. You should also ready your spells for when the opponent becomes visible again.
Edit: OK, that's not particularly nice. It's recommended that you be level 2 by the time you get that far. It really is a fair ways in, after a lot of stuff in town and several fights. Took us three or four sessions to get that far. And readying actions is great for enemies that only give you a narrow window of opportunity.
Not to get too argumentative about this, but I haven't actually seen you point out an example where the rules contradict. Care to quote me a few sentences? I've seen you say several things where you think they should, but there's a difference between that and what's written. The tower shield thing comes close, but see above explanation, and also, the tower shield description specifically notes that it doesn't work like that.
For blindsense or tremorsense or what have you - nope, can't see. Blindsight, or lifesight, sure, but the 'sense's are specifically not as good as actually seeing something. "Any opponent the creature cannot see still has total concealment against the creature with blindsense", for instance.
In the vast database of PF and 3.5, there are of course a few examples out there where somebody wasn't thinking it properly through and some critter has spells it can't use under the rules, or an encounter where enemies are scripted to do things outside the rules. But these are mistakes, or exceptions, not the rules as they stand.
I feel like I should point out that there's all kinds of things GMs can do - and I would definitely advocate such things - to be more lenient about this stuff (such as what chavamana pointed out), but if you're asking what the rules say, that's a different question.
The way the game works is that you can't target someone with total concealment, and being invisible grants total concealment.Total Concealment: If you have line of effect to a target but not line of sight, he is considered to have total concealment from you. [b]You can't attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance (instead of the normal 20% miss chance for an opponent with concealment).
You can't execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies.
where does it say that?
Actually you can't target an invisible opponent. I was partially incorrect. :)
Actually devs have stated that it takes 3 rounds to pinpoint the magic aura of an invisible creature, and I'm pretty sure JJ remarked that if they move before then you have to pinpoint it again.
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Something else I wasn't thinking of when I posted that... Detect Magic requires concentration to maintain which eats up your standard action for the round.
I know it takes time to pinpoint the auras, doesn't make sense that you would have to pinpoint it over and over again if the subject moves though. Their magical aura doesn't wink in and out of existence as they move. The aura would move with them.
Something else I wasn't thinking of when I posted that... Detect Magic requires concentration to maintain which eats up your standard action for the round.
I know it takes time to pinpoint the auras, doesn't make sense that you would have to pinpoint it over and over again if the subject moves though. Their magical aura doesn't wink in and out of existence as they move. The aura would move with them.
Yeah but Detect Magic works in a cone.
Yeah, I'll try and find it on JJ's thread, I can't remember exactly what he said about when the invisible creature moves...
He did say something though :)
Want to target an invisible creature with spells? Detect magic is a 0 level spell. No more miss chance!
I think detect magic would give you the square but you would still have the miss chance - just like locating an invisible creature via a perception roll.
Which makes me believe that the situation Marc Radle laid out is how they intended detect magic vs invisibility to work. (Relavent part of post quoted below.)
I've seen this come up in our games a few times. Characters were able to use spells and/or abilities such as detect magic or detect evil to locate invisible creatures. Not so accurately that we could attack without penalty but we WERE able to at least figure out the general area (the square) the invisible creature was in and then at least try to attack with a 50% miss chance.
Want to target an invisible creature with spells? Detect magic is a 0 level spell. No more miss chance!
Detect magic only reveals the aura, not the creature. In short you know which square it is in, but that is about it.
Want to target an invisible creature with spells? Detect magic is a 0 level spell. No more miss chance!Detect magic only reveals the aura, not the creature. In short you know which square it is in, but that is about it.
Still a clever trick to use, especially when you don't have See Invisibility.
Also proves I was right about that one magical trap in regards to an argument with my past DM.