I'm a new player at this (playing my first game currently, the 6th or 7th session is coming up Saturday) so bear with me if this is an extremely stupid question/scenario to anyone even slightly more experienced.
I was piddling around, setting up a Sorcerer, mostly for fun, somewhat as a possible back-up character in case of death or game switch, and I noticed the Protean bloodline. I got to thinking that a Polymorph/Shapeshifter Sorcerer would be pretty damn fun to play, go around either blasting people with rays of "lol you're a sheep" and being able to transform myself into a Dragon, that sort of thing.
But the more I'm actually playing the more I'm becoming wary of whether or not my spell DC would even remotely match the enemy's Save by the point I can actually get these spells and utilize them properly.
I do have pretty good base stats I think (we're going off of just rolling for stats, no point buy), with a 19 in Charisma and a bonus in everything but Con and Str, which are at 0 and -1 respectively, if that matters in your calculations any.
So what do you think? Would it be viable or should I scrap it in favor of something more damage or status effect-y?
You can certainly base a sorceror build around using transmutation spells to turn enemies into sheep/stone/salt/whatever - it's just a matter of making sure your Transmutation DCs are as high as you can get them.
Given your low strength, you're not set up to be a particularly powerful shapeshifter, however. Remember that polymorphing merely enhances your natural physical stats - rather than replace them entirely - so if you want to be a decent polymorphed fighter you probably want at least a mid-range strength.
As a single-classed sorceror you'll also be rather squishy, especially with your 12 Con, so you might not want to find yourself in melee all that often.
That's not so say polymorph spells won't have any utility for you, just that turning into an ogre/dragon/dire tiger and tearing it up in melee might not be the optimal strategy given your stats.
A good way to do the whole polymorphed fighter thing would be to go draconic sorceror-> dragon disciple, which gives you more AC, more hp, better base attack and a strength boost. Even then you'd probably still need to start with a better strength to make it fully viable, though.
I have made some pretty fun sorcerer EK based off the shapeshifting bloodlines before.
For a straight up sorcerer, I kinda like the boreal bloodline. Sleetstorm + their level 9 ability is just MEAN. No save, no SR blind effect that does not affect you. You can do SOOOOOO much damage with that.
@Corlindale: Hm. My GM does allow for stat swapping (before play starts), i.e. my rolls are my rolls but I can allocate them in any order I want.
So basically what I got currently is:
Half-Elf Sorcerer, Level 1:
Str: 8
Dex: 14
Con: 11
Int: 15
Wis: 12
Cha 19 (Where my +2 is)
I'm thinking I may swap to Human (I actually hadn't looked at Human's abilities before I made this guy) for the extra spells and the whole "Give up most of your racial traits for +2 to two ability scores" thing, and then swapping the scores around a bit based on your advice. So maybe:
Human Sorcerer 1
Str: 15
Dex: 14
Con: 14 (First +2)
Int: 11
Wis: 8
Cha 19 (Second +2)
Would be better for the whole deal? I have a good enough Str to make decent melee hits at base (for level 1 anyway), Dex of 14 gives me a little bit of extra AC, and I have a decent Con as well. So a not so squishy Sorcerer.
The other problem with polymorph self type spells is that you still have a low BAB and a low number of hitpoints. That's not to say that you can't turn into a dragon or something and slaughter some mooks if you want to, being able to do that is fun and awesome, but for practical purposes most of the time you'll be more effective casting spells then you will attacking.
I mean, go ahead and learn some polymorph-self spells when you get to that level, if you want; they're got a lot of uses if you're creative, but don't rely on going into melee with them as your main form of attack.
Rynjin wrote: I'm thinking I may swap to Human (I actually hadn't looked at Human's abilities before I made this guy) for the extra spells and the whole "Give up most of your racial traits for +2 to two ability scores" thing, and then swapping the scores around a bit based on your advice. So maybe: Unless you're using some house rule for stats, humans don't get +2 to two ability scores. They get a single +2 to a stat of their choice and no penalties. As do half-elves and half-orcs.
The other core races get 2 +2s and a -2 to specific stats.
playing a save or die sorcerer is risky busniess. i have a gm who rolls 15-20 on most of my save or die spells, in front of me no less, and it realllllllly sucks to have wasted 2 or 3 rounds on spell casting with no success.
when it works its awesome, but, in my case, it can suck if the gm rolls high more often then not.
just some food for thought for when you're deciding if you want to play this character or not.
thejeff wrote:
Unless you're using some house rule for stats, humans don't get +2 to two ability scores. They get a single +2 to a stat of their choice and no penalties. As do half-elves and half-orcs.
The other core races get 2 +2s and a -2 to specific stats.
its part of the ARG. its 100% legal.
I'd guess you have to go EK or DD. Since polymorph forms usually have natural attacks the strength boosts from DD are probably better than the higher BAB of EK, but it locks you into the draconic bloodline. DD also hurts less to get into apart from the draconic bloodline restriction. You can get in at level 6 rather than level 8 and you lose caster levels a little later, one at DD1 and a second at DD5, rather than one at EK1 and one before EK1. You lose another at DD9, but you can always pull out at level 8.
Yeah, if you actually want to be a sorcerer who on a regular basis turns into stuff and then attacks with natural melee attacks, dragon disciple is a good choice. Much higher BaB, more hitpoints, you still get some sorcerer spells (although less) from your dragon disciple levels and you get your bloodline abilities, and you get spells like "form of the dragon" for free from your draconic bloodline.
I think that's the way I'm gonna go then. I think shapeshifting myself will be a whole lot more fun than a primary focus on shifting others.
Bonus for the whole bestial appearance by default thing.
thejeff wrote:
Unless you're using some house rule for stats, humans don't get +2 to two ability scores. They get a single +2 to a stat of their choice and no penalties. As do half-elves and half-orcs.
The other core races get 2 +2s and a -2 to specific stats.
It's one of the alternate racial traits for humans. It replaces all of the other traits (Bonus Feat, extra skill points, and the original +2 to any 1 score) for the +2 to any 2.
Quote: Dual Talent Some humans are uniquely skilled at maximizing their natural gifts. These humans pick two ability scores and gain a +2 racial bonus in each of those scores. This racial trait replaces the +2 bonus to any one ability score, the bonus feat, and the skilled traits.
I recommend using EK if you gonna do the self polymoprhing line of spells.
Yes. I ran a transformation based sorcerer for an entire campaign. It is entirely viable. By the way, I got A LOT of milage out of Alter Self, both in and out of combat. Scouting, spying, impersonating someone, purchasing supplies (our party was wanted by the authorities), you name it.
I also ended up having the best AC in the group, although the bonuses were temporary, unlike the armored party members. Then I added touch attacks, because even with a sorcerer's progression, it was fairly easy to connect with those, especially when I buffed. Check out the Bestiary. Monster touch ACs don't advance as fast as the sorcerer's BAB, comparing CL to CR.
If you're allow to use Third-Party PFRPG stuff, I highly recommend The Sublime Transmuter from Zombie Sky Press. It's an excellent class if you're looking for mutability in your spellcasting capabilities.
Justin Sluder wrote: If you're allow to use Third-Party PFRPG stuff, I highly recommend The Sublime Transmuter from Zombie Sky Press. It's an excellent class if you're looking for mutability in your spellcasting capabilities. That seemed really interesting so I picked it up; after looking at the Primal Dream path, I have to say that does look really cool, but how balanced is it in practice? I'm asking your opinion because I assume you're tried it or seen it played. Building a potential level 8 character it seemed like it could get out of hand pretty fast as a combat form. I was looking at a Chain Worm crossed with something that gives pounce, constrict, or flight and shuddered a little.
You need to choose whether you are going to primarily focus as shape shifting melee or transforming debuffer and build appropriately.
If you're going to the former route, then you can't build Charisma at the expense of your physical attributes, You've got to build them up, as they will be the base for your scores in transformed mode.
Look into the Orc bloodline it was designed to be the melee bloodline. Yeah if you plan to do this I would suggest starting with a 19 strength and a 15 in Cha. You won't be casting all that much once you are tearing into things with your claws.
AoMF is a necessity.
I'd think abberant sorcerer would be the best for this given the auto-extended spell thing they have.
chaoseffect wrote: Justin Sluder wrote: If you're allow to use Third-Party PFRPG stuff, I highly recommend The Sublime Transmuter from Zombie Sky Press. It's an excellent class if you're looking for mutability in your spellcasting capabilities. That seemed really interesting so I picked it up; after looking at the Primal Dream path, I have to say that does look really cool, but how balanced is it in practice? I'm asking your opinion because I assume you're tried it or seen it played. Building a potential level 8 character it seemed like it could get out of hand pretty fast as a combat form. I was looking at a Chain Worm crossed with something that gives pounce, constrict, or flight and shuddered a little. I wish I had in-game experience with this class. The game I play in doesn't allow third party material, and my players don't want to play third party classes. I have a new campaign starting this week, and I plan on trying out every 3pp class I have as various NPCs. I'll let you know how things work out.
Rynjin wrote: I think that's the way I'm gonna go then. I think shapeshifting myself will be a whole lot more fun than a primary focus on shifting others.
Bonus for the whole bestial appearance by default thing.
Another good thing about the dragon bloodline is the bonus to doing damage with spells of the element associated with your dragon bloodline. So, for example, if you're a red dragon, you might want get the spell "burning hands" as one of your level one spells, you do extra damage with it.
I should probably note here that it's going to be a little while before you're actually doing your transforming stuff, you can't do it at a low level, so be prepared for that.
If you really want to just turn into a giant beast and kill stuff, the best class for that is druid, but that's a very different flavor and type of magic then the sorcerer.
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