I was working on a character concept and started working towards the idea of a Soulbound Doll Synthesist. My question is about what happens when the construct is merged with the eidolon (an outsider). Does the merged entity still have the construct's immunities? The synthesist description (quoted below) talks about effects related to a type, but not about abilities that come from being a particular type. My assumption is they would be retained just like a dwarf's darkvision or a gnome's racial magic trait. Am I reading it correctly?
He counts as both his original type and as an outsider for any effect related to type, whichever is worse for the synthesist. Spells such as banishment or dismissal work normally on the eidolon, but the synthesist is unaffected.
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I'm doing a similar thing, and the we're playing it is that it's just a second skin. It doesn't breathe or eat etc...
A synthesist summons the essence of a powerful outsider to meld with his own being.
as to the eidolon its self, it apparently has no immunities given, but I wouldn't assume a normal needs to breathe or eat. AS their form takes on the desires of the summoner.
Synths are tricky normally and now your just adding to it ;-) RAW, a synth summoners body is essentially bound up useless inside the eidolon. Rulings like the eidolon needing arms for the summoner to cast spells and the line about the summoner using the eidolons eyes to see, etc. would actually point to losing those abilities based on physical qualities of your race when melded.
Basically, unless you spend the evo points on darkvision for the eidolon, you wouldn't have access to it from your own body as you aren't using your own senses when melded for example.
Hmmm. That would seem to imply that maybe you would lose the immunities related to physical attributes and retain the ones related to mental attributes. That's a can of worms I'd just assume not open.
It might be best for me to let sleeping maniacal teddy bears lie.
Yeah, there is also something similar with poly effects that came up in a thread a bit ago. Someone was looking to see what happens to a Feys DR when they wildshaped. Even though their type (fey) stays the same when in animal form, RAW they lose the DR because it wasn't granted by the Fey racial type and the form they were going into didn't 're-grant' it (as the transmute/poly school says they are lost but sometimes they can be gained if the new form etc.)
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Synths are tricky normally and now your just adding to it ;-) RAW, a synth summoners body is essentially bound up useless inside the eidolon. Rulings like the eidolon needing arms for the summoner to cast spells and the line about the summoner using the eidolons eyes to see, etc. would actually point to losing those abilities based on physical qualities of your race when melded.
Basically, unless you spend the evo points on darkvision for the eidolon, you wouldn't have access to it from your own body as you aren't using your own senses when melded for example.
I disagree based on the blurb below:
"While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear, except for his armor. "
Also why/how are you buying darkvision? Eidolons start with it for free.
Synths are tricky normally and now your just adding to it ;-) RAW, a synth summoners body is essentially bound up useless inside the eidolon. Rulings like the eidolon needing arms for the summoner to cast spells and the line about the summoner using the eidolons eyes to see, etc. would actually point to losing those abilities based on physical qualities of your race when melded.
Basically, unless you spend the evo points on darkvision for the eidolon, you wouldn't have access to it from your own body as you aren't using your own senses when melded for example.I disagree based on the blurb below:
"While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear, except for his armor. "
Also why/how are you buying darkvision? Eidolons start with it for free.
Ahh that's why I thought it would be retained. I knew there was a reason I thought that.
Synths are tricky normally and now your just adding to it ;-) RAW, a synth summoners body is essentially bound up useless inside the eidolon. Rulings like the eidolon needing arms for the summoner to cast spells and the line about the summoner using the eidolons eyes to see, etc. would actually point to losing those abilities based on physical qualities of your race when melded.
Basically, unless you spend the evo points on darkvision for the eidolon, you wouldn't have access to it from your own body as you aren't using your own senses when melded for example.I disagree based on the blurb below:
"While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear, except for his armor. "
Also why/how are you buying darkvision? Eidolons start with it for free.
Abilities in that respect can also mean casting spells, sneak attacks, smites, favored enemy bonuses. IE class abilities.
Again, note that even if it says you can cast spells, you still need to purchase arms to do so. As for the darkvision it was an example (though not very accurate) but the point still stands. Using abilities(class) and using abilities(physical) are two different things, and the FAQ even shows a differentiation.
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Synths are tricky normally and now your just adding to it ;-) RAW, a synth summoners body is essentially bound up useless inside the eidolon. Rulings like the eidolon needing arms for the summoner to cast spells and the line about the summoner using the eidolons eyes to see, etc. would actually point to losing those abilities based on physical qualities of your race when melded.
Basically, unless you spend the evo points on darkvision for the eidolon, you wouldn't have access to it from your own body as you aren't using your own senses when melded for example.I disagree based on the blurb below:
"While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear, except for his armor. "
Also why/how are you buying darkvision? Eidolons start with it for free.
Abilities in that respect can also mean casting spells, sneak attacks, smites, favored enemy bonuses. IE class abilities.
Again, note that even if it says you can cast spells, you still need to purchase arms to do so. As for the darkvision it was an example (though not very accurate) but the point still stands. Using abilities(class) and using abilities(physical) are two different things, and the FAQ even shows a differentiation.
I'm not sure what FAQ you are referring too in regards to Sythesists besides the below spoiler...
Summoner: Can a synthesist (page 80) make attacks from his own body (such as manufactured weapons, unarmed strikes, or natural attacks) and attacks from the fused eidolon in the same round?
Yes, but the fused character's natural attacks are still subject to the Maximum Attacks entry in the table for an eidolon of his level. For example, a 1st-level synthesist is limited to 3 natural attacks per round, whether those natural attacks are from the eidolon, the synthesist, or a combination of the two.
If the synthesist wants to use his eidolon's natural attacks and use his own manufactured weapons or natural weapons in the same round, his eidolon needs to have enough limbs to account for all of these attacks. For example, a gnome synthesist fused with a two-armed biped eidolon has two arms it can use to make attacks; if the synthesist wants to make claw attacks with his eidolon's claws and also make weapon attacks (such as with a dagger or staff), he needs to give his eidolon additional arms evolutions to hold those weapons (as an extension of the summoner's own limbs)--a two-armed eidolon can't make two claw attacks and also make a dagger attack or staff attack in the same round.
Remember that the synthesist is still subject to the rules of combining manufactured weapon attacks and natural weapon attacks in the same round (in that the natural weapons are always considered secondary and therefore have a -5 attack penalty).
Remember also that the summoner is wearing the eidolon like a biological, all-encompassing "suit," and the eidolon's shape limits what the summoner can do. If the eidolon doesn't have arms, the summoner can't use his own arms to manipulate objects, make attacks, cast somatic spells, or anything else requiring arms--while fused, the summoner's limbs are trapped within the armless eidolon-suit, and he isn't able to use them to manipulate things. The summoner isn't able to extend his own body parts outside of the eidolon-suit; if he wants to be able to manipulate things with arms, the eidolon needs arms (though tentacles are sufficient for simple tasks).
(Note: It is a matter of flavor and player's preference whether the synthesist floats immobile within the eidolon-suit and its limbs move at his mental command, if the synthesist moves his own arms and the eidolon-suit's arms echo this movement, or if the eidolon-suit is more form-fitting and the flesh-enveloping limbs move in direct response to the synthesist's own movements.)
Note: This clarifies an earlier FAQ error where the summoner's weapon attacks counted toward the number of attacks on the table.
—Sean K Reynolds, 08/02/11
But the FAQ does not add further rules on senses available while merged, so I'm going off the Main write up for Synthesists.
As such, what is listed for Synthesists and merging forms does not coincide with your statements above about not sharing senses, or overlapping them.
When you said: "Rulings like the eidolon needing arms for the summoner to cast spells and the line about the summoner using the eidolons eyes to see, etc. would actually point to losing those abilities based on physical qualities of your race when melded."
I believe you are wrong about that, and will give two examples why after I post another spoiler tag with the basic Synthesis write up on how the merge works for reference.
A synthesist summons the essence of a powerful outsider to meld with his own being. The synthesist wears the eidolon like translucent, living armor. The eidolon mimics all of the synthesist’s movements, and the synthesist perceives through the eidolon’s senses and speaks through its voice, as the two are now one creature.
While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist uses the eidolon’s physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), but retains his own mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma). The synthesist gains the eidolon’s hit points as temporary hit points. When these hit points reach 0, the eidolon is killed and sent back to its home plane. The synthesist uses the eidolon’s base attack bonus, and gains the eidolon’s armor and natural armor bonuses and modifiers to ability scores. The synthesist also gains access to the eidolon’s special abilities and the eidolon’s evolutions. The synthesist is still limited to the eidolon’s maximum number of natural attacks. The eidolon has no skills or feats of its own. The eidolon must be at least the same size as the synthesist. The eidolon must have limbs for the synthesist to cast spells with somatic components. The eidolon’s temporary hit points can be restored with the rejuvenate eidolon spell.
While fused, the synthesist loses the benefits of his armor. He counts as both his original type and as an outsider for any effect related to type, whichever is worse for the synthesist. Spells such as banishment or dismissal work normally on the eidolon, but the synthesist is unaffected. Neither the synthesist nor his eidolon can be targeted separately, as they are fused into one creature. The synthesist and eidolon cannot take separate actions. While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear, except for his armor. In all other cases, this ability functions as the summoner’s normal eidolon ability (for example, the synthesist cannot use his summon monster ability while the eidolon is present).
This ability replaces the class’s eidolon ability, bond senses, and life bond.
The following class abilities function differently for synthesist summoners.
Now what is gained and lost based on this is the following:
- Gain: Eidolon Senses. Darkvision by default, and anything else bought later with evo points. (note: you wouldn't lose anything you currently have, such as an Elf Summoner with low light vision.)
- Gain: Physical Scores. You swap out your physical stats for it's stats, for better or worse while in the 'suit'. Also gain access to any special abilities, attacks, or evolutions. (note: yes it would be very wise to have 'arms' or you can't use your own arms for anything. This does not set up a scenario however to use RAW that you lose access to your innate racial senses or abilities.)
- You lose access to your armor while merged. And are considered both your racial type, and outsider.
- Other stuff blah blah.
Anyway, There's nothing written supporting you saying: "losing those abilities based on physical qualities of your race when melded." Besides what has already been FAQ'd in reference to arms.
The final trump however is what I posted earlier, which specifically says you keep your abilities (and it doesn't narrow down which, so keep them all, physical and class.)
Please cite a reference if I am missing something like a more updated FAQ topic on Summoners, or something else.
Ability Examples:
- A Half-Elf Summoner with Low Light, wouldn't lose low light while merged. (senses)
- A Half-Orc with a bite attack wouldn't lose his bite while merged either (physical)
- A Paladin can still smite, with or without arms, while merged. (class)
Fused Eidolon
A synthesist summons the essence of a powerful outsider to meld with his own being. The synthesist wears the eidolon like translucent, living armor. The eidolon mimics all of the synthesist’s movements, and the synthesist perceives through the eidolon’s senses and speaks through its voice, as the two are now one creature.
While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist uses the eidolon’s physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), but retains his own mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma). The synthesist gains the eidolon’s hit points as temporary hit points. When these hit points reach 0, the eidolon is killed and sent back to its home plane. The synthesist uses the eidolon’s base attack bonus, and gains the eidolon’s armor and natural armor bonuses and modifiers to ability scores. The synthesist also gains access to the eidolon’s special abilities and the eidolon’s evolutions. The synthesist is still limited to the eidolon’s maximum number of natural attacks. The eidolon has no skills or feats of its own. The eidolon must be at least the same size as the synthesist. The eidolon must have limbs for the synthesist to cast spells with somatic components. The eidolon’s temporary hit points can be restored with the rejuvenate eidolon spell.
I'll agree nothing comes out and says what it seems to be heading the the general direction of, but it isn't quite as cut and dry as you say it is either.
If you are 'perceiving' through another creatures senses; guess what, you aren't using your senses. If you are speaking through another creatures voice, you aren't using your voice. What it really comes down to is this, you are inside your eidolon, using its body to do things. In essence it's about as close to a suit of 'power armor' as this game has come to. If your potentially better physical stats don't come into play, why should your other physical attributes? Intent of the archtype seems to point to using your eidolon as the physical form to be considered, not yours.Basically what it really comes down to is this, the synth archtype needs a much longer and more indepth write up (as if the numerous FAQs and being taken out of PFRPG organized play wasn't a hint). There are still many things that aren't spelled out like they need to be.
I'd suggest hitting the FAQ button, but I have a hunch that it won't get anywhere as I'm sure the Paizo crew is probably tired of the archtype at this point and having removed it from organized play it's another reason to leave it up to the DMs in a home game and for them to not worry about it as much/or at all any more.
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In a RAW sense, it is very cut and dry. It isn't what people always want to hear, but if there is no rule to say otherwise, you go with what's written, not what you think should be implied.
If I were to apply RAI to your 2nd paragraph above about 'perceiving' the official write up says a Synthesis' Eidolon is a 'translucent' shell. How translucent is it? Is it enough to be blinded and only see points of light on your best day? Or is it nearly transparent and doesn't hinder your vision at all? Who cares, we do obviously :), but it doesn't state it effects your vision (or what you are referring to as your physical attributes.) nor does it state you suddenly lose access to such. Therefore, by RAW, it does not.
RAW here is that they can, and you have not cited a RAW example of why they cannot, until you can, there's really no point trying to spin the flavour text as that is simply you applying your intent over the underlining rules already presented on how this ability functions.
House rules can always fill in or change any rule you think should be, but by RAW, the OP is fine with using whatever abilities he has access to while merged, as it does specifically say you can. It does not make any further distinctions or limitations against that either. When your in the RAW forum you gotta go with what is written and not read between the lines. Even if it does seem silly.