Sap Master Shenanigans

[Maxadon]

First time poster, I was just going through the pfsrd and I noticed a pretty gruesome combo so I'm not really sure if it works.

1d6(shortbow)+5(enhancement bonus)+4(strength bonus)+1d6(merciful enchantment)+20d6(sneak attack doubled with sap master)+40(sap adept) = 121 avg dmg

+15(hasted)/+15(flurry of blows)/+15/+10/+5

So if all attacks hit then the average damage of this at level Ninja 19/Monk(zen archer) 1 is 605.

Grappling with sap adept, sap master, strangler & pinning knockout:

1d4(sai)+5(enhancement bonus)+4(strength)+20d6(sap master sneak attack)+40(sap adept)x2(pinning knockout)= 243 dmg + (20d6+40 strangler+ sap adept + sap master) = 353 dmg

This can be modified to get quite a bit higher as well by taking all the other classes which gives sneak attack +1d6 at first level.

I just wanted to check see what you guys thought about this, since I'm probably not doing all of this correctly.

[brad2411]

well the problem I see with this is the short bow deals piercing damage not bludgeoning so you can not use the sap feats, unless you use special arrows.

[Maxadon]

Sorry, yes. You would be using blunt arrows.

[RumpinRufus]

He could just use blunt arrows, and with a merciful bow they'll qualify for the sap feats (without the normal -4 penalty for nonlethal or taking the Bludgeoner feat.)

edit: ninja'ed

[blackbloodtroll]

Doing something crazy at 20th level is not grand feat.

[c873788]

Yes, it is too good to be true. Unlike the normal qualifications for sneak attack damage, sap master damage requires that the target is flat-footed. This is a lot more difficult to achieve than just denying the target a Dexterity bonus to AC.

I know the build is still feasible for melee but you will have to invest heavily in feats that allow you to catch your opponent flat-footed. I'm not sure if it works for a ranged build.

[Maxadon]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Doing something crazy at 20th level is not grand feat.

This is a rules check.

[Maxadon]

c873788 wrote:

Yes, it is too good to be true. Unlike the normal qualifications for sneak attack damage, sap master damage requires that the target is flat-footed. This is a lot more difficult to achieve than just denying the target a Dexterity bonus to AC.

I know the build is still feasible for melee but you will have to invest heavily in feats that allow you to catch your opponent flat-footed. I'm not sure if it works for a ranged build.

It isn't too difficult with a ranged weapon, ninja invisibility and sniping with the stealth skill.

[Eric Clingenpeel]

Ah, but being invisible does not make your targets flat-footed. It denies them their dex bonus, but that is different than being flat-footed.

[c873788]

If you want to maximise sneak attack damage with the sap feats, you might want to look at the Vivesectionist Beastmorph Alchemist. This is like combining sneak attack sap damage with a barbarian's rage damage. It would add up to insane amounts of damage by level 20.

[Maxadon]

Eric Clingenpeel wrote:

Ah, but being invisible does not make your targets flat-footed. It denies them their dex bonus, but that is different than being flat-footed.

Yes, this is true. I only mentioned the invisibility for a +40 sneak so that you could snipe with stealth skill and still have a high sneak check.

With that in mind, you could use surprise round & first round of combat (assuming you go first) to make your attacks, couldn't you?

[StreamOfTheSky]

You basically need to use Shatter Defenses to make things flatfooted after round 1. Which means you probably want to be a Rake Rogue to generate demoralization on sneak attacks.

Having a melee friend with Distracting Attack rogue talent from a 2 level rogue dip is also a method to get Sap Master.

[Krodjin]

Your math is wrong as a result of applying the feats in the incorrect order. Sap Adept would only give you +20 damage, not +40 as a 19th level Ninja only gets 10d6 Sneak Atack.

Then you apply benefits of Sap Master (as long as your foe is Flat Footed). You do not retro-actively go back and increase Sap Adept damage.

I had this explained to me by James Jacobs in the "Ask James Jacobs" thread - id post the link but I suck at copy & paste while posting from my phone. Sorry.

You can also bump up the static damage bonus by adding Knockout Artist and using Unarmed Strikes.