Just an idea I have been using and thought I would throw out their as a possible option.
Outsider Bond (EX)
A Summoner begins play with the ability to call to his side a single powerful outsider. This called creature retains it normal Hit Die, skills, and feats relative to its CR, and a Summoner can not call a creature with a CR higher than the Summoner's level. This Outsider may not have an alignment that is opposed to the alignment of the summoner that calls it. Any creature called by the summoner in this manner can understand all of the Summoner's commands, and follows those commands to the best of its ability. These Outsiders are treated as called creatures, in that they are considered as having physically manifested on the material plane. However, due to its tie to its summoner, the Outsider can touch and attack creatures warded by protection from evil and similar effects.
The summoner may call his bonded outsider in a ritual that takes 1 minute to perform. When called in this way, the outsider's hit points are returned to full, if not at full all ready. The Outsider remains until dismissed by the summoner (a standard action). The Outsider cannot be sent back to its home plane by means of dispel magic, but spells such as dismissal and banishment work normally. If the summoner is unconscious, asleep, or killed, his summoned outsider is immediately banished.
If a Summoner releases their bonded outsider from service, or is banished, then the called outsider immediately returns to its native plane, and no longer has to follow the Summoner's commands. Once the Summoner has released the outsider from service, the outsider is banished, or the outsider was killed in combat, then the Summoner may spend 24 hours performing a ritual to Summon and bond a new outsider to his service.
I know that this invalidates several archetypes, such as the Synthesis, but aside from that what is the general consensus about replacing the Eidolon class feature with this ability?
Mainly I wanted something that was easier to use and manage than the current Eidolon feature that still had some connection to the idea of a Summoner calling outsiders. Basically, maintain the outsider feel of the Eidolon class feature while not having to deal with all the math and headaches that comes with trying to use it.
My purpose for posting it here would be to discover whether or not such an option was balanced and what sort of issues existed for the purposes of this being used in play, mainly so I can be prepared if/when my players should bring them up.
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Too powerful
A 7th level summoner could have a succubus or shadow demon. All the time
Compare that to a wizard, who must be 11th level to summon a Succubus with the spell.
Your problem is that outsides in the books typically have more HD than their CR, while an eidolon always has fewer HD than the summoner's level, and there are a myriad of powerful spell like abilities and supernatural abilities that they access to.
I'll admit, I've been curious for some time now what the problem folks have with the summoner. I run a group of 8 players and have had 2 summons in a group. How, exactly, does it bog down play?
The only problem I ever noticed was players wanting to reconfigure the eidolon through transmogrify. However, if the player hasn't already configured their eidolon or whatever variations they may wish to use before the gaming session, the spell fails. My group isn't waiting on one dude/dudette to get his act together.
Additionally, I don't give players XP till the end of a session, and if the eidolon isn't correctly configured by the next session, the summon fails - again, folks aren't waiting on one dude to get his act together. On the rare occasion I need them to level mid-session, we take a 30 minute break, get our acts together, and resume.
This policy, with whatever archetype selected, has kept eidolons/summoners from being a problem.
I use the same policy for any summon (whatever) spells, familiars being leveled, animal companions, and so on.
First day I started this, one player wasn't prepared - guess he didn't think I'd stick to it. He hasn't come unprepared since.
The short version: what am I missing that folks are finding problematic?
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I'll admit, I've been curious for some time now what the problem folks have with the summoner. I run a group of 8 players and have had 2 summons in a group. How, exactly, does it bog down play?
The only problem I ever noticed was players wanting to reconfigure the eidolon through transmogrify. However, if the player hasn't already configured their eidolon or whatever variations they may wish to use before the gaming session, the spell fails. My group isn't waiting on one dude/dudette to get his act together.
Additionally, I don't give players XP till the end of a session, and if the eidolon isn't correctly configured by the next session, the summon fails - again, folks aren't waiting on one dude to get his act together. On the rare occasion I need them to level mid-session, we take a 30 minute break, get our acts together, and resume.
This policy, with whatever archetype selected, has kept eidolons/summoners from being a problem.
I use the same policy for any summon (whatever) spells, familiars being leveled, animal companions, and so on.
First day I started this, one player wasn't prepared - guess he didn't think I'd stick to it. He hasn't come unprepared since.
The short version: what am I missing that folks are finding problematic?
In the hands of an inexperienced player, the Eidolon is complicated and requires knowledge of rules that players typically don't lead to know. This leads to many players building and running their Eidolons incorrectly.
In the hands of an experienced player, the summoner and eidolon are very powerful and can easily break the game, leading to the summoner often overshadowing other players.
One of the original ideas for the summoner was to make it so he bonded with a specific outsider who advanced as the summoner did. This would've been much like an animal companion. I think you're idea is fairly close to that, although there are the issues with yours as previously identified.
Outsider Bond (EX)
A Summoner begins play with the ability to call to his side a single powerful outsider or elemental. This called creature retains it normal Hit Die, skills, and feats, and a Summoner can not call a creature with more HD than the Summoner has levels. The creature may not have an alignment that is opposed to the alignment of the summoner that calls it. Any creature called by the summoner in this manner can understand all of the Summoner's commands, and follows those commands to the best of its ability. The creature is treated as if it had been called from its natural plane, and it is considered as having physically manifested on the material plane. However, due to the creature's tie to the summoner, the Outsider can touch and attack creatures warded by protection from evil and similar effects.
The summoner may call the bonded creature in a ritual that takes 1 minute to perform. When called in this way, the creature's hit points are returned to full, if not at full all ready. The Outsider remains until dismissed by the summoner (a standard action). The Outsider cannot be sent back to its home plane by means of dispel magic, but spells such as dismissal and banishment work normally. If the summoner is unconscious, asleep, or killed, his bonded creature is immediately banished.
If a Summoner releases the bonded creature from service, or the creature is banished, then the bonded creature immediately returns to its native plane, and no longer has to follow the Summoner's commands. Once the Summoner has released the outsider from service, the outsider is banished, or the outsider was killed in combat, then the Summoner may spend 24 hours performing a ritual to Summon and bond a new outsider to his service.
Changed CR to HD, and added in elementals into the ability. Changed up the language so that everything was singular instead of mixing my singulars and plurals.
Also, wondering if their are any issues with the Summoner simply getting outsiders/elementals. I have a feeling that Balors and Pit Fiends would have a problem simply being pulled from their Realms to help a Summoner until Death or the Summoner foolishly releases them. Especially since they are required by the ability to faithfully serve the Summoner whether they want to or not. Maybe include the Negotiation type language from Planar Binding? Possibly with them getting a bonus to the charisma check equal to 1/2 their Summoner level instead of the usual +0 to +6?
Necromancers of the Northwest and Epic Meepo both came up with summoner archetypes that eliminated the eidolon. As I recall, one of them took the simple step of allowing one summoned monster of the highest level that the summoner could summon to become a more or less permanent companion for a couple of levels. The other let the summoner cast his summmoning spell-like ability at will. Both archetypes could be considered as taking the Master Summoner archetype to its logical extreme -- instead of enhancing summonings by gimping the eidolon, they enhanced summonings even more by totally eliminating the eidolon.
Necromancers of the Northwest and Epic Meepo both came up with summoner archetypes that eliminated the eidolon. As I recall, one of them took the simple step of allowing one summoned monster of the highest level that the summoner could summon to become a more or less permanent companion for a couple of levels. The other let the summoner cast his summmoning spell-like ability at will. Both archetypes could be considered as taking the Master Summoner archetype to its logical extreme -- instead of enhancing summonings by gimping the eidolon, they enhanced summonings even more by totally eliminating the eidolon.
Well, technically, this is an elimination of the Eidolon, but the real idea is to take the idea of the Eidolon, a single outsider/elemental that the Summoner has on call, and put it more in line with what is already expected in the game. All without really doing too much to greatly enhance the summoning that they are all ready doing. So, yes it ends up being a gimp over all, but the idea is to make it so that the summoner is easier to manage for those entering the game, not quite so exploitable for those experienced in the game, and less of a head ache for me as a DM which I feel is better for everyone involved, but I recognize it may not work for everyone. Just wanting to make sure it will work within the confines of the game so I have an option to present those who do want to play summoners.
Aasimar are outsiders. Can my 5th level summoner summon a 5th level Aasimar Paladin? By your rules, why not?
You see where this leads to problems?
Yes, if you already have a large party then it would be a problem. It would slow the game down, and would lead to a DM having to adjust encounters accordingly to have to take into account the increased party size, not to mention all the spells that outsiders have immunity against, and a host of others I am sure I have missed; however, it would also act as a solution in the event of you only having a 2 to 3 person party and needed something to act like a front line fighter. Furthermore, it can also have the effect of adding a skill monkey, or spellcaster type should you have an small all front line fighter party.
So, would some adjustments be required? Yes, and I am open to seeing what further adjustments need to be made (I'm thinking I may just end up rewriting all of the outsiders to put them in line with what is seen out of a druids animal companion, but that hardly solves the problem of what to do when in a large party.) But the ability itself is far from terrible. Actually, the more I think about it the more I find this to be better suited to an archetype that replaces the Eidolon ability. That way it would become more useful in the situations described above while allowing DMs to simply disallow it in situations that don't warrant such inclusion.
Also, what do you think about them having to first negotiate with the Outsider ti gain their service? Would that be a reliable stop gap or is the fact their already charisma based casters going to make that more of an illusion of balance as opposed to any real semblance of balance?
If what you want to do is scale down the eidolon, the master summoner might be the way to go -- although that archetype's ability to have multiple summoned monsters present when the eidolon is not summoned might be a bit strong for your purposes.
If you just want to reduce the power of the eidolon without powering up the summoned monsters, the First Worlder archetype might be what you are after. That archetype changes the eidolon from an outsider to a fey (definitely nerfing its combat effectiveness) and replaces Summon Monster with Summon Nature's Ally. The only compenstation they get is the addition of a few fey monsters to their summoning lists.
Well David I'll definitely look into the First World Summoner then. Sounds like it is going towards what I want. I'll see if my players are interested.
I may simply shelve this for a while until I can work out a more equitable solution beyond "it helps small parties".