Kirrund; I haven't read the module, but depending on the spell used, there is a good chance that situation would break the rule...
Figments and glamers cannot cause damage to objects or creatures...
Nonlethal damage is still damage, which silent, minor, and major image cannot deal.
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Well, the thing is, they arent really taking damage, they just think they are. Theres no actual damage dealt at all, except for the purposes of making the character believe their wounds are real and that they have died (if they are never able to successfully disbelieve).
I'll look it up when I get home and post specifics, but I want to say it was major image.
Its treated like nonlethal damage.
It isn't; the spell can't do that.
Well, the thing is, they arent really taking damage, they just think they are.
They don't; the spell can't do that. The spell doesn't affect the target's mind to make them think anything. It isn't a "mind-affecting" spell. It is a "figment"; which makes something appear to be there which isn't.
If it was major image there is a problem. Being hit with an orc's axe and taking no damage as it passes through you should be a pretty clear case of proof that illusion is an illusion, and is backed by the rules (see above). Allowing people to think they've been killed by a 1st level figment like silent image to knock them out effectively makes it a long rage, large-area, multiple-creature SoD effect, empowering it far beyond its already impressive limits.
If the module uses major image this way, then the module is garbage.
Kirrund; I haven't read the module, but depending on the spell used, there is a good chance that situation would break the rule...
Figments and glamers cannot cause damage to objects or creatures...Nonlethal damage is still damage, which silent, minor, and major image cannot deal.
I read it. The author is taking creative liberties, which is to say he is ignoring the rules.
edit:In short the spell in question can not deal damage or make you believe that you actually feel pain. Now in 2nd edition IIRC illusion spells were partially real, and if you did not disbelieve them they could harm you, but those days are gone.
edit2:I am aware that we agree :)
It is MAJOR IMAGE.
I'm not sure what Jason Bulhman was attempting to do here but it's a little beyond what the spell can actually do.
Just a little.
I cut the creative team at Paizo a bunch of slack. I ran through this adventure and it seemed pretty fun.
Re: silent image, what about making a square appear as though it were filled with caltrops? Caltrops don't force anything, you can make a choice to slow down and avoid them, or move at normal speed if you eish and face the potential consequences (unlike diff terrain which forces slower movement).
The choice to slow down is based purely on the visual element of the caltrops - there is no (assumef) physical interaction when one decides to slow or not. Obviously if a creature doesn't slow down, they're likely to "touch" the illusion, thus breaking it.
By the way, I agree re: the flanking examples that this doesn't work.
Why even bother having a rulebook if even the designers are going to squat over it?
Dealing damage to PCs with major image? If I brought that module before my players I wouldn't be invited to run a game again anytime soon.
Dealing damage to PCs with major image?
Relax the spell doesn't do any damage in this adventure, but it does go beyond what the spell is suppose to do.
These orcs are illusory. Whenever they
hit or are hit by one of the player characters,
they react appropriately, but give that
PC a DC 16 Will save to notice that
these orcs are not real. Characters
who are told that the orcs are not
real receive a +4 bonus on the save. If
the save is failed, the character believes
the wounds caused by the attacking
orcs. Once all of the characters have
disbelieved or all of the orcs are slain,
both the orcs and the wounds caused
by them disappear.
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Okay...so people who say figments can't flank know the difference between flat foot and denied dex, have actual rule text to back up their points, knows the rules for the spell of can't make a figment pit, know the rules for marbles and knows that SI is one of the most freaking powerful 1st level spells.
The people who says it can don't know the difference between flat footed and denied dex, use a bunch of well it's "logical" aspect to MAGIC without any rules really, do not know the limits of silent image or the rules for marbles...oh and think SI is a weak spell.
Yeah I wonder who knows the rules more. This is the rules forum...not what I would do as a DM forum or what I want my DM to do forum. If you think a spell should work a certain way, as a DM do it. As a player talk with you DM and don't try and get a rules loophole here to try and force your DM's hand. NO game is played pure RAW...hell there ISN'T pure RAW. The point of this forum is to get as good of a baseline as we can of RAW so we have a common talking point about the ruleset. If you can not accept rather clear rules like you must threaten to flank and figments do not threated, then you really don't belong here and you should be more in the houserules and suggestion area.
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illusion in PF is greatly <> than illusions in DD2.0
in DD2 you believe the illusion, it can strike/kill you.
in PF, figments are not mind-affecting, not real : this means
* they cannot damage you,
* they cannot make you think you're damaged
* illusionary wall won't stop you if you rush through it
* BUT they can fool undead !
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As a note, you could use your Silent Image spell to create the illusion of uneven or slippery ground (ie faking casting a spell that makes this stuff), which would force your opponent into making acrobatics checks to stay up/move (assuming a failed save), and deny him his dex bonus that way... Note that you wouldn't be affected by the area of "uneven" terrain - you know it's an illusion.
An interesting idea, the problem is that, beside a piece of text in the Acrobatic skill, with no linked table giving the DC and kind of terrain, uneven terrain don't exist in the rulebooks.
The closest think are Uneven Flagstones, but they work differently, slippery terrain can make you fall, but it will not make you flat footed, marbles, that you suggested in a later post, can make you fall but don't make you flat footed (and require a reflex save, not an acrobatic check).
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So in your opinion what is silent Mage good for. I have to say putting illusionry magic marbles on the floor to Crete difficult terrain seems like a perfectly valid application of the spell. Shadow conjuration is for when somebody makes there save and still gets nailed with the spell.That is what I am saying. A lot of people seem to want silent image, a 1st level figment, to duplicate the effects of shadow conjuration, a 4th level shadow. The latter lets to duplicate grease, summon monster, and fog cloud, and get the effects you are looking at. The former does not. You are trying to apply the power of a 4th level spell to a 1st level spell.No, shadow conjuration wouldn't do that; part of the stuff it creates is actually REAL. You can make your saving throw against a Shadow conjuration of a Grease spell, and still slip and fall on your ass... Only a 20% chance but still.
There is an illusion spell that allows all of this. It is called shadow conjuration, and it is a 4th level spell.
Marbles: Like caltrops, marbles can be used to slow down opponents. One 2-pound bag of marbles covers an area 5 feet square. A creature entering a square with marbles scattered on it must make a DC 10 Reflex save or fall prone (the creature's stability bonus to trip applies to this save). Any creature moving at half speed or slower can pick its way through a square of marbles with no trouble.
The character (if he has failed the ST) can choose to move at half speed to avoid the risk to fall but if he move at full speed he will not be forced to make a Reflex ST as he will never step upon a real marble.
I will step upon illusionary marbles that pass through his foot, so he will never really risk to fall.The ST against the illusion isn't automatic simply because he is stepping in the "marbles" square, as most people, in combat, wouldn't be looking their feet but the enemy, but he would get a ST as he is interacting witht eh illusion.
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Silent Image can't make difficult terrain, but it can make you go around what you think is difficult terrain, or slow down going through what you think is a square of cavalry spikes. And then you get your save, and make it, and it's too late that turn.
SI can't attack you, but it can make you think these two guys are attacking, so you have to watch them both. The harshest I think I could dial my GM-as-hater dial to would be to give a perception check before the flank is established, and then the illusionary dude an initiative roll, and a to hit roll(vs touch), and if the illusion made it, the illusion poofs.
I'm seeing posts that appear to compare the cost of the spell to the effect. That SI can't provide flank, or rough, or whatever, that's all too good for such a lowbie spell. But when that's your only spell?
If a player sits down cold at my table and says, "I cast Silent Image to flank!", I'll say, "What?" But if he tells me how he casts it around the corner, so the illusionary flanker can _walk_ into sight, not just appear, and how the flanker is going to grin, and crouch, and brandish a shortsword teasingly, more mocking than attacking...
Hells yeah.
Because when I GM, It's not about saying 'no'. It's about saying 'cool'.
And what you will do with your "rule of cool" when a few level later he get a stronger illusionary spell and discover he can't do more than before? That actually getting the stronger spell remove options from the lower level spell?
Or you will still allow him to get extra effects from his first level spell?