Oathbound Paladins and Oath Spells

[DracoDruid]

Hey everyone.

I am currently looking into all Paladin options and stumbled upon a strange wording from the oathbound paladin:

Ultimate Magic wrote:

Oath Spells: A paladin’s oath influences what magic she can perform. An oathbound paladin adds one spell to the paladin spell list at each paladin spell level she can cast (including spell levels for which she would only gain spells per day if her Charisma were high enough to grant bonus spells of that level). Her oath determines what spell is added to the spell list. If the paladin has multiple oaths, the spells from each oath are added to her spell list.

If an oathbound paladin has more than one oath, she may prepare any one of her oath’s spells in that slot (similar to a cleric choosing one of her two domain spells to prepare in a domain spell slot).

This seems as if the Paladin would get an additional domain SLOT.

But the wording before only speaks about "adding to the LIST".
But since the Paladin is a divine prepare caster his "List" is the WHOLE Paladin spell list, isn't it?

I guess he actually gets these spells "automatically and additionally" prepared, but the wording really should be cleared up.

Thoughts anyone?

[DracoDruid]

shameless bump

[Mavtrick]

DracoDruid wrote:

This seems as if the Paladin would get an additional domain SLOT.

But the wording before only speaks about "adding to the LIST".

I was wondering the same thing. The way it is written doesn't say that you get an extra spell slot, but it implies that someone was thinking about it lol.

Has anyone seen this question come up in another thread? Is there an official answer?

[Elamdri]

You don't get a slot. You get a spell added to the list of Paladin spells. The comparison to the Cleric's Domain spells is what is causing the confusion and was probably a bad idea.

Basically:

Assume I have a paladin capable of casting 1 first level paladin spell from the paladin list

If I am a normal paladin, I can only fill my spell slot with spells from the paladin list.

If I am an oathbound paladin however, I get one extra spell, Spell X, that is added to my list of 1st level paladin spells.

So as an oathbound paladin, when I am preparing my spell for the morning, I can select from the 1st level paladin spells + Spell X.

That is ALL it does. You basically get 4 Extra spells added to your Paladin spell list over the course of your career. Nothing more.

[DrakeRoberts]

I'm raising this from the dead for confirmation as well, as I find the domain reference to also be very misleading if Elamdri is correct. Do I get another slot that must be a preparation of my Oath spell?

If it truly is (as the rest of the section reads) just a list addition, then is the domain-referencing section meaningless, or is there some other implication there (such as an unstated rule that you can only prepare one copy of your Oath spell, and if you have 2 Oaths, you can only prep 1 per level)?

My gut says the list-only interpretation is right and that the domain-referencing section was just leftover from a previous writeup that was going to give an extra slot. Or perhaps just a temporary slip of the brain that was never caught. Still, it seems worth verifying.

Thanks.

[LazarX]

DrakeRoberts wrote:

I'm raising this from the dead for confirmation as well, as I find the domain reference to also be very misleading if Elamdri is correct. Do I get another slot that must be a preparation of my Oath spell?

If it truly is (as the rest of the section reads) just a list addition, then is the domain-referencing section meaningless, or is there some other implication there (such as an unstated rule that you can only prepare one copy of your Oath spell, and if you have 2 Oaths, you can only prep 1 per level)?

My gut says the list-only interpretation is right and that the domain-referencing section was just leftover from a previous writeup that was going to give an extra slot. Or perhaps just a temporary slip of the brain that was never caught. Still, it seems worth verifying.

Thanks.

I never got that from my reading. You simply now have more spells to choose from, nothing more, nor less.

[Belafon]

I am inclined to give an "oath slot" to oathbound paladins. I agree it does seem like things got a bit mashed up and the actual language adding an oath slot at each level was left out but there are two distinct places where it refers to having an additional slot:

Quote:

...(including spell levels for which she would only gain spells per day if her Charisma were high enough to grant bonus spells of that level).

Would make no sense if it just added spells to the spell list.

Quote:

If an oathbound paladin has more than one oath, she may prepare any one of her oath's spells in that slot (similar to a cleric choosing one of her two domain spells to prepare in a domain spell slot).

Also makes no sense if there is no "oath slot."

In addition several of the oaths give spells that are already on the paladin spell list at that level. (Oath Against Undeath gives sanctify corpse at first level for example.) Again, if all this does is add them to your spell list, this makes no sense.

Everything makes sense if you assume the line "An oathbound paladin gains one oath spell slot for each level of paladin spell she can cast, from 1st on up. Each day, a paladin can prepare her oath spell in that slot." is missing from before the line about having more than one oath.

[DrakeRoberts]

Belafon wrote:

In addition several of the oaths give spells that are already on the paladin spell list at that level. (Oath Against Undeath gives sanctify corpse at first level for example.) Again, if all this does is add them to your spell list, this makes no sense.

I hadn't noticed this before.... that does seem odd if the 'add to list only' interpretation is correct.

[The Morphling]

You get an oath slot. The wording is poor, yes. But the ability wouldn't reference an oath slot if there wasn't an oath slot.

[PhelanArcetus]

Necromancying so that I can add an FAQ click mostly.

My gut feeling is that, somewhere in the design process, the feature changed between granting slots in which you could only prepare oath spells, and simply adding spells known. From one to the other, not sure which way.

And the change just didn't get fully propagated to the text, so it's somewhere in between.

(I'm also considering running an oathbound paladin shortly in a one-shot, so I'll be asking the GM there for his interpretation, but this seems to want a click.)

[Bigdaddyjug]

Heck, I'm running a level 9 Oath of Vengeance paladin in PFS right now and it would be very nice to have a definitive answer to this question.

[Kryx]

FAQ'd.

As others have said it's impossible to know which direction the designers were headed: Either removing or adding the Oath slot.

I've chosen to interpret it as if it adds a slot due to the reasoning Belafon presented. Especially the sanctify corpse argument.

[HWalsh]

I use forum Necromancy! Because, James Jacobs answered my question about this today by telling me he wouldn't answer it and to FAQ it... Since... It hasn't been FAQ'ed and we have been waiting for 3 years 2 months, 2 weeks, and 6 days for a bloody answer. :P

[DrakeRoberts]

Necromancy's in hopes of getting FAQ attention!

[Bashamo]

Bumping for an answer

[Librain]

2018 and still no answer as far as I'm aware. An extra spell slot per day would make a significant difference, especially when some of the 'bonus' spells granted are already on the paladin's spell list. On the other hand, some of them grant fourth level cleric spells as third level paladin spells, so I can see how granting an extra spell per level might be a significant and unintended powerup.

Still, given the wording is clearly ambiguous, I'd love to see a response from the team on this.

[Wiggz]

Following up as well, hoping for some sort of definitive answer...

[Wiggz]

Anyone?

[XenoMagus]

Dear Paizo,

Please give this question (do Oathbound Paladin's have "oath slots") an official answer. I've been unable to find a definitive answer to this question anywhere on the internet.

Some GMs allow "oath slots" and some don't. I am inclined to agree with the above posters who point out that it doesn't make sense for there to be no oath slot if spells are being added to the paladins list that are already there such as sanctify corpse for the first level spell. It seems to me that the references to a slot and the comparision to a cleric's domain slots in the description also indicate that some of the wording regarding oath spells was omitted by accident.

I would very much appreciate an official answer on this topic. This has been an ongoing problem for years, as shown by this thread which has been bumped several times over several years without an official answer.

Thank you for your attention to this matter. I very much enjoy the Pathfinder game, and this clarification would mean a lot to me and others who play Paladins.

[Tom Sampson]

If it makes you feel any better, PF2E's FAQ habits are likely no better.

This reads like bad editing to me, where it originally gave an oath slot and the language was partially excised and partially left in, resulting in this nonsense. By that token, the intent would be no oath slot, and that's how I'm inclined to rule it. Normally domain spells aren't added to a class's spell list either, so my suspicion is that the Oath spells mechanic was originally intended to resemble domains but got changed into only adding spells to your spell list, with someone forgetting to remove that vestigial language about your oath slot.

By RAW, Oath spells do not say anywhere that they grant bonus spells or bonus spell slots (as domains do), and therefore you get no oath slot, even if they have a provision describing the behavior of hypothetical oath slots.

So I rule no slot, but you can expect table variation on this, so ask your GM.

[Pizza Lord]

As far as I can tell, reading it. Belafon's answer is correct. The ability makes no sense when you consider that it says you get a spell slot for levels that you don't get spell slots (without a high enough ability) and because there are oaths that add paladin spells that are exactly the same level when you would get those paladin spells (and paladins get access to all paladin spells in general). This was pointed out with Oath Against Undead's sanctify corpse at 1st-level. Granted, that's only one oath, but if that's not the case, then we'd have to rule that Oath template to be in error or mistyped like the Oathbound archetype, and then have to figure out what was intended to go there.

The mention of an oath spell slot requiring only one oath spell of that level to be chosen (and pointing out how it works like a domain slot) only reinforces this. The oath spell slot is an additional slot that is filled, or chosen from, the oath spells granted by the oath for that spell level, just like a cleric's domains.

[Tom Sampson]

That's only a single spell from a single oath from the same book that originally added the Oathbound Paladin archetype. And Paizo is no stranger to making mistakes like this either. For instance, worshiping Lamashtu adds Baleful Polymorph to the Druid's spell list, when they can already cast it at the same level.

[Pizza Lord]

Tom Sampson wrote:

That's only a single spell from a single oath from the same book that originally added the Oathbound Paladin archetype. It wouldn't be the first time Paizo made a mistake like this either.

Certainly it wouldn't be. It's also not the only reason given. And if you were to assume it was also in error, now you'd have two issues you'd need to resolve, both the oath spell ability and the specific oath. Now you're breaking one ability solely for the purpose of trying to correct another... and you have no idea what spell to even replace sanctify corpse with (presumably something against undead, but you're still just guessing).

Tom Sampson wrote:

By RAW, Oath spells do not say anywhere that they grant bonus spells or bonus spell slots (as domains do), and therefore you get no oath slot, even if they have a provision describing the behavior of hypothetical oath slots.

What do you mean there's no mention of slots or how they behave? What do you call this?

Oath Spells wrote:

If an oathbound paladin has more than one oath, she may prepare any one of her oath’s spells in that slot (similar to a cleric choosing one of her two domain spells to prepare in a domain spell slot).

Domain Spells wrote:

Each day, a cleric can prepare one of the spells from her two domains in that slot. If a domain spell is not on the cleric spell list, a cleric can prepare it only in her domain spell slot.

It's pretty much the same (it says it is). The caster can only prepare that spell in the domain/oath slot unless it's on their list. In this case, only sanctify corpse seems to be, so they can put it in that slot and have multiple more prepared as well. If somehow the paladin didn't have sanctify corpse, they could only have it once in that slot (unless they also put it into a higher level oath slot).

[Tom Sampson]

Well, you'd have zero issues to resolve. The oath spell ability does not need further adjudicating if it only adds spells to your spell list. And ruling on it as written, you wouldn't replace Sanctify Corpse. It'd just add a spell to your spell list which you already have, which is useless, but that's nothing new.

Also, I said there is no part of the text that says you get bonus spells or bonus spell slots, and that that remains the case even if there is text describing how an oath slot would work. There is still no text that grants the oath slot (or bonus spell) in the first place, so you don't get an oath slot. You just add it to your class's spell list, like the text says.

So by RAW this is how it works, as far as I can tell. You're welcome to improvise otherwise, but that's more in the realm of homebrew and houserules.