Versatile Weapon


Rules Questions

Shadow Lodge

5 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Just re-read the spell description and feel I missed something obvious:

SRD wrote:
This spell functions like greater magic weapon, except that it subtly alters the physical properties of a weapon...

Does the reference to GMW mean that Versatile Weapon gives the weapon a +1 enhancement bonus / four caster levels in addition to the DR effect? If so I under-applied the benefit of the spell in my last campaign.


Yes, anytime a spell references another spell and says 'This spell functions like X, except...' then it works just as if you cast the references spell, except for the part after the except. Since nothing in the except for this spell contradicts the bit about the enhancement bonus, you get that when you cast the spell.

Shadow Lodge

So unless it explicitly says "except instead," it means "except also." Thanks.


Yep, generally, the 'except' means 'except also do the following'. I don't know a lot of spells that do reference and remove anything from the base spell.


I disagree...

Imho "except that" means "except instead":

greater magic weapon is a third level spell... for a second level spell (Versatile Weapon) to duplicate a third level spell and do even more sounds overpowered.

Greater Magic Weapon wrote:


School transmutation; Level cleric 4, paladin 3, sorcerer/wizard 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M/DF (powdered lime and carbon)
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one weapon or 50 projectiles (all of which must be together at the time of casting)
Duration 1 hour/level
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless, object); Spell Resistance yes (harmless, object)
This spell functions like magic weapon, except that it gives a weapon an enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5). This bonus does not allow a weapon to bypass damage reduction aside from magic.
Alternatively, you can affect as many as 50 arrows, bolts, or bullets. The projectiles must be of the same kind, and they have to be together (in the same quiver or other container). Projectiles, but not thrown weapons, lose their transmutation after they are used. Treat shuriken as projectiles, rather than as thrown weapons, for the purpose of this spell.
Versatile Weapon wrote:


School transmutation; Level bard 2, ranger 2, sorcerer/wizard 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (iron filings)
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one weapon or 50 projectiles, all of which must be together at the time of casting
Duration 1 minute/level
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless, object); Spell Resistance yes (harmless, object)
You transform the physical makeup of a weapon as you desire. This spell functions like greater magic weapon, except that it subtly alters the physical properties of a weapon, enabling it to bypass damage reduction of one the following types: bludgeoning, cold iron, piercing, silver, or slashing. The affected weapon still inflicts damage of its normal type and its hardness and hit points are unchanged. This spell can be cast on a natural weapon or unarmed strike.

The wording of magic weapon vs greater magic weapon is also a replacement...


Versatile weapons duration is MUCH shorter (1 min vs. 1 hour). Besides it's only a ranger or bard 2nd lvl spell, so I don't think you can compare it like that.

I had the exact same thought, but after thinking it over, I agree with dmt (who I also know is often very rules savvy on these boards).

Sovereign Court

Versatile Weapon lasts minutes, Greater Magic Weapon lasts hours. That makes up the power difference.

Also, VW is the same level as GMW for wizards, and the bard and ranger spell progression is slower, so it probably evens out in how early you can get it.


If you want to compare equal spell progressions, you have to take paladin and ranger...

Even with the duration difference, the wording found in other spells would suggest them to replace, not to stack...

Being able to change weapon damage types or materials usually means a straight +3 or +5 equivalent... getting the enhancement on top of that makes Greater Magic Weapon close to useless...

Imho, to make it work as "both" you'd have change the sentence:
...except that it also subtly alters...

Grand Lodge

Duration is key in power comparisons.

Versatile weapon is useful, but is shorter.


Derwalt wrote:


I had the exact same thought, but after thinking it over, I agree with dmt (who I also know is often very rules savvy on these boards).

*blush*

Although it's MDT, not DMT. :)

Sovereign Court

Yeah, GMW lasts 1hr/level, that's probably enough for the entire dungeon. VW lasts 1min/level, that may be enough for two fights, but it's not a sure thing. Certainly not enough for the whole dungeon.


Faq'd

Grand Lodge

There is no need for a FAQ.

It has a shorter duration, but an added effect.

There is no confusion, and no balance issue.

Even if you hit the FAQ, it will be ignored, as the answer is clear.

Sovereign Court

GMW is for entire dungeons, VW is for boss fights.

Shadow Lodge

Reduced duration for extra DR-piercing benefit makes sense to me from a balance POV.

The GMW text doesn't feel like a solid argument for "except instead" in Versatile Weapon because it modifies the scale of the bonus rather than substituting a different feature: even if you apply "except also" to GMW you'd get the same effect for that spell, adding non-stacking +1 and (+1 per 4 levels) enhancements.

I had for some reason never even noticed the reference to GMW in Versatile Weapon. Three cheers for re-checking rulebooks, I'll modify my play immediately.

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