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Friend has a Ninja.
Ninja has Vanishing Trick.
Vanishing trick is Swift action.
Friend is currently in stealth mode. Takes a ranged attack at an opponent a sufficient distance away. (simple standard action). Before going into stealth again with his Move action, he wants to use Vanishing Trick for the immense bonus thanks to invisibility.
Can he do it?
Standard action shoot
Swift action Vanishing Trick
Move Action (sniping) stealth check.
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That should be completely legal.
Swift Actions
A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort than a free action. You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action. Swift actions usually involve spellcasting, activating a feat, or the activation of magic items.
Yeah, that works. Mechanically sound and thematically appropriate.
Great. ^_^
The only thing that really deterred me from that conclusion was this one little word... :
Sniping: If you've already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location.
Wasn't sure if you could squeeze a free action in there.
Edit: I should Emphasize, this question is for the purpose of Maintaining that stealthy status, not being discovered, going invisible, and going into stealth again.
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Great. ^_^
The only thing that really deterred me from that conclusion was this one little word... :
Sniping: If you've already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location.Wasn't sure if you could squeeze a free action in there.
Edit: I should Emphasize, this question is for the purpose of Maintaining that stealthy status, not being discovered, going invisible, and going into stealth again.
Well using stealth usually does not require using any actions, it is simply part of your move action. But in the case of sniping it is a move action. Its a tough call, I would ask the GM. I would not see any real problems with it.
Mechanically it makes sense. Within a given round, a character generally is allotted a Standard Action and a Move Action. They are also allowed (nearly) unlimited Free Actions, and a Swift Action (or an Immediate Action).
Since the PC is using up a Standard Action, a Move Action, and a Swift Action all during their turn, it is legal for them to do so.
Hmmm so with regards to ninjas
Round 1: Vanish, move into position.
Start Round 2 invisible
full attack. Attack 1(sneak attack), swift action vanish, sneak attack 2.
Hmmm so with regards to ninjas
Round 1: Vanish, move into position.
Start Round 2 invisible
full attack. Attack 1(sneak attack), swift action vanish, sneak attack 2.
Mechanically, it could work.
*Edit* Read Swift Action Description; this move is actually legal.
So it doesn't matter at all that it's stated that the stealth use must be done Immediately after? You can still use the swift action beforehand? (Or During?)
So it doesn't matter at all that it's stated that the stealth use must be done Immediately after? You can still use the swift action beforehand? (Or During?)
Most concepts using an Action usually have the term "Action" in them. Magic items have "On Command" or "At Will" to separate these. At will does not make discrepancies from spells or extraordinary abilities, meaning they function exactly the same. On Command means they function as the description labeled, but can be done so as a Free Action (unless stated otherwise within said description).
Since the Stealth option does not say it requires an Immediate Action to maintain the Stealth check (only that it must be made immediately before the next action), it does not consume one of the actions the PC can legally take.
I'm sorry; Either there's miscommunication at hand, or I simply don't understand what you're getting at...
To give my full thought process:
I was quoting what I read in the PRD.
Sniping: If you've already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location.
It states a little later on that this particular stealth check will be a Move action
Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.
Overall, the whole question of this thread is whether or not a Swift or Free action (Vanishing Trick) could be used in between the Attack (A simple attack (standard) action) and the Stealth Check (Move Action).
The reason I sought clarification is because it states the word 'Immediately', and I wanted to know whether or not that implied that no other action (Swift or Free action included) could be used between the attack and stealth check.
I see what you are worried about, but I think you would be ok. Due to the wording you are forced into the move action with no wriggle room. For sniping it actually dictates a move action right after the attack.
RAW, I'd say no.
Game wise as GM barring it 'breaking' something (obscene amounts of Ki points through a loop hole) I'd let it ride.
Linking RAW for abilities and the such does help in getting your point across. Doing so whenever possible (especially when questioning rules and their intent and/or wording) helps out a bunch.
According to the abilities you mentioned, if the PC is invisible before-hand, they are allowed a standard action to make a single ranged attack; upon completion of the attack action, they must make a stealth check (without the Invisibility modifiers, according to the -20) to maintain undetection. If the PC moved (or utilized a move-action) before-hand, they must wait a round before using stealth again (as it is listed as part of a movement action), otherwise they cannot make a Stealth check within that same round, and are thus considered auto-detected.
Is it possible to get away with it in another fashion?
For example, there are some instances that imply you can often take Free Actions as Part of (or during) a move action... And Swift actions can be done any time a Free action can...
Maybe he can use Vanishing Trick as a part of his Stealth Check (Move action)?
and, @Darksol
I wouldn't say it's being used to convey a point; it really is a specific instance I'm asking about. That wording, that single word, 'immediately' makes it debatable. Had my ninja friend not bothered to "maintain" his stealthy position, everything would have been alright. But if he wishes to Maintain it, and not be revealed at all, he needs to use that Stealth Check (Move action) *Immediately* afterwards.
The problem is the move action is forced, you make the roll at -20 and then the invisibility occurs. That split second from move (with -20) to invisible (with huge modifier) means you are possibly seen going back into hiding which defeats the purpose of the sniping.
My point precisely, Skylancer4. ^_^
..And I'm Desperately hoping there's a way around this, or an absolute guarantee that you can slip in the Vanishing Trick, or that will be a slightly sadder ninja.
So, *If* the answer turns out to be that there is No method of using the swift action between the attack and move action...
Then the next question in line is if there's a way to make the Vanishing Trick a Part of the move action.
Here's hoping that there's no problem in the first place.
I understand that the word "immediately" makes a person think other things, and that's no problem that people think that way. That's why the forums are here; to get second opinions, official rulings, etc. for their sessions to help regulate their problems and/or situations that have with their sessions/players/whatever.
The thing is, a character that must "Immediately" do something doesn't always trigger an action.
For example, if I was some rogue/ranger/whatever, and stepped onto a trap-triggering square/plate, and the DM told me to immediately make a Reflex save, that doesn't mean that I have to sacrifice the (single) Swift Action that I get for that round; it only means that I must resolve that check (or save, in this case) before any other action takes place.
In the realistic scenario you presented, it says that the check can be made as part of their movement. So if I made a move action, did the Sniping action (which is a Standard/Attack Action), upon completion of the Attack Action (regardless of it being before or action my move action), I must immediately (that is, upon completion of the attack action) make a Stealth check or be detected by the clown I was shooting at.
Using other skills/examples/whatever as a means to make basis with your claims and/or perspective (when no other wording suggests/states otherwise) isn't bad; in the case of subjects consuming actions, I used the example of Magic Items.
Generally, an item that has the words "On Command," means that the action it says functions as it says, as a free action (since a command requires speaking, which is considered a free action generally). Unless it says otherwise, it is a Free Action. However, if an item says (or includes) an "At Will" and/or "As the Spell" clause, it means you refer to the spell mentioned for every detail, including action type(s) listed.
The same concept should apply. Since the term "Immediate" does not include any means of "action" it means that the PC must make the check upon completion (regardless of success or failure) of the attack made.
Hope this helps!
@Darksol, on command word activation, isn't a free action despite saying a word being a free action. Command word activation is actually a 'standard' action cost which includes the speaking of the word as well as intentionally willing the effect into occuring. This actually the "normal" rule that items follow when they don't specifically detail how to use or are activated in the description (as per command word activation in the core book, pg 460 maybe?).
@Darksol
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I'm sorry, mon ami, but I'm afraid we may simply not be on the same page.
I just want to clarify once more that it is in the interests of this Ninja to remain hidden; not even a glimmer of detection, other than the general direction that ranged attack came from. Therefore, it's in his interests to do exactly what the skill says, and make the stealth check 'immediately' proceeding his attempted attack. It's in his best interests to perform his Vanishing Trick sometime between or during *If Capable*, in order to benefit from the bonuses it'd give him. This thread exists to clarify whether or not he's capable of such.
The argument is not what 'triggers' an action. It is not what 'calls' for this action or that. I think it's quite well outlined that, in order to fulfill his goal and Maintain Stealth, he has to make the check 'Immediately' after his attack (as stated in the PRD), and it's later stated this check takes a Move Action to perform. (It directly references the Sniping section, implying this.)
If that is what is being debated, this is my presumption and interpretation of the RAW.
Edit:
...just a shot in the dark here. Are you trying to imply that the Stealth check for remaining concealed After a ranged attack is only Part of a move action, rather than a move action itself? I believe that's rather false.
@Darksol
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I'm sorry, mon ami, but I'm afraid we may simply not be on the same page.
I just want to clarify once more that it is in the interests of this Ninja to remain hidden; not even a glimmer of detection, other than the general direction that ranged attack came from. Therefore, it's in his interests to do exactly what the skill says, and make the stealth check 'immediately' proceeding his attempted attack. It's in his best interests to perform his Vanishing Trick sometime between or during *If Capable*, in order to benefit from the bonuses it'd give him. This thread exists to clarify whether or not he's capable of such.
The argument is not what 'triggers' an action. It is not what 'calls' for this action or that. I think it's quite well outlined that, in order to fulfill his goal and Maintain Stealth, he has to make the check 'Immediately' after his attack (as stated in the PRD), and it's later stated this check takes a Move Action to perform. (It directly references the Sniping section, implying this.)
If that is what is being debated, this is my presumption and interpretation of the RAW.
Edit:
...just a shot in the dark here. Are you trying to imply that the Stealth check for remaining concealed After a ranged attack is only Part of a move action, rather than a move action itself? I believe that's rather false.
Chances are, we probably aren't. So no need to apologize for that; the apology should be mine.
I re-read the two effects again, and I suppose I should retain my orginal stance; in that the character must originally make the attack as a standard action first-thing (before any other action), then take a move action to perform a stealth check.
There is no "immediate" or "swift" action to be taken, as the actions/subjects you linked do not say "as an immediate action" or "as a swift action," (unless I am again, missing key information, which I would like linked; but I doubt it, since it seems everything is already on the table as it is).
So here's what happens:
Round 1: PC performs a stealth check to sneak up on creature.
When PC succeeds, PC moves to be 10 ft. from creature. Creature sits with thumb in his face.
Round 2: PC makes a ranged attack (standard action) against the creature, using standard modifiers and bonuses, etc. Creature is hit (or missed); PC makes a stealth check as a move action to continue hiding from the creature. The effect states he no longer receives a +20 from the total concealment (or other factors), but the target is still considered flat-footed until a successful perception check to identify the creature making the attack and its location.
Round 3: When PC fails, creature moves in and attacks. If PC succeeds, repeats subjects from Round 1 to Round 3 until either the creature dies or detects the PC. In which the PC either loots the corpse, or is discovered and the scene diverts from there.
It should also be brought up (yet again) that the "Immediately" clause states that the Stealth Check must me made directly after the completion of the ranged attack roll by the PC initiating the attack (while successfully stealthed).
If that doesn't work, for whatever reason according to RAW, then this would become quite the FAQ/Errata candidate...
There is no "immediate" or "swift" action to be taken, as the actions/subjects you linked do not say "as an immediate action" or "as a swift action," (unless I am again, missing key information, which I would like linked; but I doubt it, since it seems everything is already on the table as it is).
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Mew. ^_^ Okie, I think we *can* clear this up.
This is what my friend the ninja is Attempting to use.
"Vanishing Trick (Su): As a swift action, the ninja can disappear for 1 round per level. This ability functions as invisibility. Using this ability uses up 1 ki point."
The question is if he can use it Between the Attack and move action required to stealth.
Put bluntly, he wants to be invisible in time to gain the substantial bonus to his stealth check, in order to not be detected.
As Skylancer4 stated, if he only manages to do this After the stealth check, that might mean that for a split moment of a second, he has a significantly higher chance to be spotted. He doesn't want that. Ergo this thread's existence to determine whether or not it's legal for him to use it and gain its benefits Before that stealth check is made.
Or maybe it can be used during that stealth check move action? Whatever works.
There is no "immediate" or "swift" action to be taken, as the actions/subjects you linked do not say "as an immediate action" or "as a swift action," (unless I am again, missing key information, which I would like linked; but I doubt it, since it seems everything is already on the table as it is).
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Mew. ^_^ Okie, I think we *can* clear this up.
This is what my friend the ninja is Attempting to use.
"Vanishing Trick (Su): As a swift action, the ninja can disappear for 1 round per level. This ability functions as invisibility. Using this ability uses up 1 ki point."
The question is if he can use it Between the Attack and move action required to stealth.
Put bluntly, he wants to be invisible in time to gain the substantial bonus to his stealth check, in order to not be detected.
As Skylancer4 stated, if he only manages to do this After the stealth check, that might mean that for a split moment of a second, he has a significantly higher chance to be spotted. He doesn't want that. Ergo this thread's existence to determine whether or not it's legal for him to use it and gain its benefits Before that stealth check is made.
Or maybe it can be used during that stealth check move action? Whatever works.
Swift Actions
A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort than a free action. You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action. Swift actions usually involve spellcasting, activating a feat, or the activation of magic items.
(Emphasis Mine)
From the RAW, using his ability makes no impact on his other actions. He can use the Vanishing Trick as a Swift Action (independent from his other actions, using them at any point during his turn like a Free Action) once per turn.
Meaning that once the attack is resolved, he must state he will use the Vanishing Trick (consuming a Ki Point) before the opposed Perception is rolled/configured. If he otherwise cannot spend a Ki Point, then he suffers the major penalty.
I think we're on the same page now. ^_^
Alright. so, to restate, you're arguing that it is well possible for him to use the swift action to the desired effect. And that this is allowed because it is completely independent from the attack and move action, and therefore not subject to the skill's wording(Which doesn't directly restrict other actions either).
That about right?
Unfortunately the line you highlighted could also mean, you are still able to take a standard action with a move action and a 5' step or a full round action or full attack action as well as a swift action. Basically that a swift action doesn't interfere with the rest of your possible actions, unlike an immediate action.
Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time—even if it's not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time.
Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.
An immediate action affects your ability to do other actions (namely a swift action).
So it isn't as cut and dry as you can make it out to be if you don't actually include other rules. Taking the rules out of context, it is easy enough to make whatever point you want. Taking all the rules into consideration changes the context of your emphasised point. Not to mention the swift action is the general rule, and the sniping ability is a specific rule. Typically specific trumps general right?
I don't like it, BUT the RAW of the sniping ability clearly states you take your attack and immediately after use your move action (not you may, not if you choose, not use your swift action and then your movement action) and make the stealth roll at -20. I would also love to say "Well, they didn't have ninjas at the time of the CRB so it's possible this situation wouldn't have occured ever" but it would be wrong to do so. You could still do sniping and use a quickened invisibility for the same effect. So if it was intended to, they could have easily included a clause stating it would work that way (attack, use move action to roll stealth and if you have a swift action that improves the roll you're allowed to use that as well).
EDIT: Just to say it again, I would allow it at a home game. Using the Vanishing Trick to gain +20 to your stealth roll to offset the -20 from sniping (as per moving when invisible) would be fine by me (notwithstanding other shenanigans). You still basically rolling your stealth against the targets perception and burning daily resources to get that attack off.
...It's much more simple than that.
It's already stated that an Immediate Action functions exactly like a Swift Action (in all regards), with the exception that it can occur at any point during the initiative order (and does not refresh until the start of the next round). I'll explain the mechanics again in a gameplay setting...
Round 1: PC goes stealth, and makes stealth check as standard action; PC moves at half speed into position with a move action.
Round 2: PC makes Stealth Check at his/her turn (as a free action now) to maintain non-detection; PC uses Sniping Feature (as a standard action) and makes a ranged attack. Before rolling for the subsequent stealth check (which would occur immediately after the attack is resolved, not as an immediate action since it does not state it consumes an action), the PC uses his Swift Action "Vanishing Trick" Feature to receive a +20 bonus on the stealth check (which is legal as a Swift Action can be taken as a Free Action, in that it can occur at any point during your turn [and perhaps not, if it specifically says, or is considered an Immediate Action instead]). The PC then resolves the check with the -20 penalty (but has the +20 invisibility bonus, cancelling it out), consuming a move action.
Round 3: Repeat Rounds 1 and 2 (and following through to 3) until the creature is dead, PC runs out of resources, or becomes detected.
It's that simple. There's no need to complicate things by saying "IT SAYS IMMEDIATE, THAT MEANS IMMEDIATE ACTION" when it does not say that, or whatever. (If this is not your intent with your arguments, then I apologize.)
So PC can get away with what I just said in both a home game and PFS, so it's 100% legal RAW.
I'm not sure where you're deriving "Immediate Action" from, friend. That wasn't the argument at all. The only argument is that the move action (stealth check) needed to be performed Immediately after the attack (standard action)... And the rest of the debate was whether or not you could sneak a swift action in there, to gain its benefits.
It was only not clear because the skill *might* be implying through its wording that there's no room for any other action, swift or free action included, between the Standard and Move. There's nothing directly saying that you may take no other action between the two, but the word 'immediately' seemed to stress it.
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In the sniping rules it is my belief that the authors used the word "immediately afterwards" to prevent people from sniping as part of a full-attack.
The stealth rules go on to say that normally stealth doesn't require a seperate action - but in the case of sniping it's a move action.
The intent, I believe, is to insure this all transpires on your turn within 1 round.
For all intents and purposes a Swift Action is like a Free Action - except you only get 1 per turn.
By RAW I believe you are okay to Attack (Standard Action), Vanishing Trick (Swift Action) and immediately use Stealth (as a Move action).
However you are also able to Attack (Standard Action), Vanishing Trick (Swift Action) and then actually use your Move Action to take a full move (while invisible).
In the sniping rules it is my belief that the authors used the word "immediately afterwards" to prevent people from sniping as part of a full-attack.
The stealth rules go on to say that normally stealth doesn't require a seperate action - but in the case of sniping it's a move action.
The intent, I believe, is to insure this all transpires on your turn within 1 round.
For all intents and purposes a Swift Action is like a Free Action - except you only get 1 per turn.
By RAW I believe you are okay to Attack (Standard Action), Vanishing Trick (Swift Action) and immediately use Stealth (as a Move action).
However you are also able to Attack (Standard Action), Vanishing Trick (Swift Action) and then actually use your Move Action to take a full move (while invisible).
Thanks mate. ^_^ I agree, and Hope it works exactly as suggested. The full move wouldn't be quite as useful though, since this is all for the purpose of Maintaining Stealth, not risking being spotted for even a half-second...
...Is there any way to get some kind of "Official" confirmation on this? Or, has someone of significance commented already, to suggest that those are the Rules as Intended?
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^ I clicked FAQ for you - not that it will result in errata/faq being updated anytime soon but I believe that's the path we're supposed to take officially...
You could try posting the question in the "Ask James Jacobs" thread. I asked him a very pointed question about how a line of feats is supposed to work (it was also pertaining to a Ninja) and he answered right away.
Whether or not your PFS GM will take his response in a forum as official is another matter.
I'd link you to the thread but to be honest I don't know how to find it again (which is a shame because I have more questions)...