Venture-Captain, Texas—Waco
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You can't use Seoni, but you can use pregens from any source. (Such as the Book of 80 PreGens from PathfinderDB) as long as they conform to PFS guidelines. For practical purposes, they should not be using rules beyond the APG.
For anything beyond 1st level this is absolutely false.
If you don’t have time to create a new character or simply wish to try out a new character class, you may choose to use one of several level-appropriate pregenerated characters available at paizo.com/pathfindersociety or from your local event coordinator.
However, with the rebuild rules you could take a legally-built 1st level character from alternate sources, play him/her for three scenarios, then rebuild to your mental image.
GMs do not have that freedom, if they need to run a pre-gen to make a legal 4-player table they must pick from the official pre-gens only, even at first level.
|
Pregens aren't characters some random person has made up. They are characters that Paizo staff has created. There is a difference. Lets not confuse new players by calling things pregens when they are not.
By all means keep abusing the retraining rules. Hopefully there will be more than one paragraph in the next guide so people will use it for retraining THEIR characters and not just using it for whatever reason other they dream up.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
By all means keep abusing the retraining rules. Hopefully there will be more than one paragraph in the next guide so people will use it for retraining THEIR characters and not just using it for whatever reason other they dream up.
Running a pregen through your first few games before making your "real" character is actually part of the stated intent of the rebuild rules, not an abuse thereof.
|
|
By all means keep abusing the retraining rules. Hopefully there will be more than one paragraph in the next guide so people will use it for retraining THEIR characters and not just using it for whatever reason other they dream up.Running a pregen through your first few games before making your "real" character is actually part of the stated intent of the rebuild rules, not an abuse thereof.
I agree with Jiggy. It's not really an abuse of the retraining rules to use a character provided by someone else to get started, then retraining them to suit your preferences. We have many new players at conventions that sit down and play their first 1 - 3 session with an official pregen before rolling up their own character. This is easy for the coordinators and gets people playing (which is what we want). Doing this with other 1st-level characters is fine, too.
Higher-level games require the use of one of the official pregens, and GMs can only fill the fourth PC slot with an official pregen regardless of level.
|
|
Sveden, you're in the distinct minority here based on the thread that Mike posted before deciding to go ahead with the first-level-respec change in 4.2
Particularly, it lets balancing the table of new players shift around to characters they enjoy more before 'wasting' their first four to twelve hours of play.
The benefits it gives veterans is that we can run a pregen role-filler for those newbie tables, and then put the full credits on the character we actually wanted to start next. I think it's a win all around, for the corner cases that you're decrying.
What's new?
Also go ahead and link to your Mike thread(I assume you mean Mike Brock?) if its so interesting. Maybe I could learn a little something about acceptable ways for me to abuse the retrain rules now in place.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
sveden,
Here's what I've been seeing at conventions this past year: New players come up, interested in this "Pathfinder" game they've heard about. The con organizer / venture officer makes sure they get a 1st-level pre-gen, and they go about having their first adventure.
They like it.
They've wanted to play the next session, and as a table GM I have had to explain that they need to have their own character now; if they play with a pre-gen from here on, they're locked into playing Kyra or Valeros for the rest of the character's career. Or, they could choose to make a mad dash to stat up a character in a half hour, before the next session starts.
Hells, it takes me fifteen minutes just to explain the ten factions and work through background traits.
So, they're virtually assured to have some down time now, to play all day when they first encounter Pathfinder Society, and then design a character during down time.
EDIT: sveden, you've used the term "abuse the rules" a couple of times now. Either put up or back off. What do you see as abusive about the opportunity to play a pre-gen for first level? Give us a concrete example of something you think is bad or wrong, and why you disapprove.
Otherwise, your terminology is insulting to new players, and you're being destructive to the campaign.
|
|
When you play your first session of course its totally fine to play a pregen.
What I have a problem with is that person not putting in the effort to make a PC for themselves before the second time they play. Or the third time.
Same goes for playing 3 different PCs before you get to 4 XP.
More fun for them is not necessarily less fun for you, so should not hurt your feelings or bother you or whatever is causing you to have a "problem" with what they do. I have a couple friends who enjoy coming up with different character concepts, which leads to them having a bunch of low level characters.
They make me want to tear my hair out because I'd like to play at higher levels. And they have said if we do and it is an issue, they will go pregens. But hey, in the end, it's a game.
|
|
What I have a problem with is that person not putting in the effort to make a PC for themselves before the second time they play. Or the third time.
At Gen Con we had 30 minutes between morning and afternoon slots, and an hour between afternoon and evening slots. That was the time allotted for players and GMs to eat, use the restroom, and muster for their next game. The line to create your own character at the Hero Lab station was, at times, over 30 minutes with 3 stations going at once.
So, if you have a brand-new player, who has never played Pathfinder before, but wants to play all three slots in the day (after dipping her toes in with Intro 1 in the morning slot), when exactly should she create her character so that she's not offending your sensibilities?
|
I don't think it's possible to 'abuse' the retraining rules.
You could play a couple different pregens before making your final decision on a 2nd level character.
You could create a couple new PCs and try them out before making your final decision.
You could create one PC with a couple variants to see which is most optimal before making your final decision.
Either way, YOU end up with a 2nd level PC that YOU will enjoy playing throughout the life of the campaign.
It's a win for you and a win for PFS.
|
|
What do people think if we allow rebuilds while your character is level 1? This would allow new players to try out their character, get a game or two under their belt to see if it falls under what heir character concept is, and then settle on their final build before they hit 2nd level.
One of the reasons a rebuild option, only while first level, would be considered is because local game days usually offers two games in one day. Having new players frantically rebuilding a pregen into a regular character in the too-short break between games is not advantageous to creating a solid character concept. It also allows the player who attends a 3slot/day event to rebuild after the day is done.
Yup, that's pretty much on par with why I thought the RETRAIN rule was added.
|
Isolating a quote doesn't prove your point Sveden. A person is allowed, even by that quote that you gave, to rebuild as much or as often as they like, provided that they haven't played at 2nd level yet.
You're not supporting your position in anyway, really, other than to say that you don't like the idea od it, and you (over and over) think that it is abuse. You're not giving evidence of abuse, at all.
|
|
I'm sorry, what position am I trying to prove now Kristoph? I was simply pointing out the only statements Mike Brock made in that thread in regards to the reasoning behind the RETRAIN rule.
My original statement that some random person's creation of a first level character for others to use is not a pregen. Running a pregen is different than running your own PC or random PC from a non-core website. That needs to clear.
|
|
I'm sorry, what position am I trying to prove now Kristoph? I was simply pointing out the only statements Mike Brock made in that thread in regards to the reasoning behind the RETRAIN rule.
My original statement that some random person's creation of a first level character for others to use is not a pregen. Running a pregen is different than running your own PC or random PC from a non-core website. That needs to clear.
I think where others were getting confused (myself included) is that you kept saying it was abuse, but you never clarified what exactly you were calling or seeing as abuse.
you have statements, such as the following that seem to state that we are abusing the retrain rules. The rules for pregens and retraining, while somewhat interlinked, are also different rules not one in the same. You are referencing two different rules, but not clarifying what they are in your posts. And I agree with Jiggy, you haven't given examples.
Pregens aren't characters some random person has made up. They are characters that Paizo staff has created. There is a difference. Lets not confuse new players by calling things pregens when they are not.
By all means keep abusing the retraining rules. Hopefully there will be more than one paragraph in the next guide so people will use it for retraining THEIR characters and not just using it for whatever reason other they dream up.
|
|
1st-Level Character Retraining
Pathfinder Society is all about player choices and living with those choices once you’ve made them. However, at the start of a Pathfinder’s career, you are allowed to adjust your character before settling in for the long haul. Before you level up a character for the first time, you may change any aspect of it except its Pathfinder Society Number. Changes may only be made between adventures and before beginning play as a 2nd-level character. Any exceptions will be noted in the Pathfinder Society FAQ. You are able to keep all treasure, Prestige Points, special boons, and XP that you have earned and apply them to a character once you retrain as long as it meets the criteria above.
|
|
1st-Level Character Retraining
Pathfinder Society is all about player choices and living with those choices once you’ve made them. However, at the start of a Pathfinder’s career, you are allowed to adjust your character before settling in for the long haul. Before you level up a character for the first time, you may change any aspect of it except its Pathfinder Society Number. Changes may only be made between adventures and before beginning play as a 2nd-level character. Any exceptions will be noted in the Pathfinder Society FAQ. You are able to keep all treasure, Prestige Points, special boons, and XP that you have earned and apply them to a character once you retrain as long as it meets the criteria above.
what point are you trying to make?
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
...Sveden, are you trying to say that the rebuild rules are only for altering a character you already designed, and that using the rebuild rules to create a character after playing a pregen is abuse?
That's what it currently sounds like you're saying, but you're making your case in bits and pieces, making it really hard to follow.
|
|
Here's what I. Me. This guy and ONLY this guy has a problem with.
If you don't care what I have to say, that's fine. That's why its my opinion.
I think its an abuse for a player to grab a random character generated by someone else and play a session with it. Then turn around a grab a different character and play a session with it. Then turn around again and grab a different character and play a session with it for their third and final XP. Boy that'd be a lot of record keeping wouldn't it? All that gear for new characters.
Another abuse would be to play a fighter from 0 to 3XP and then switch to a Sorcerer because Sorcerers suck at level 1.
Another abuse would be to cherry pick what class you are going to play for a scenario because this one needs class X. Then for your second XP doing the same thing because this particular scenario needs class Y. Hey might as well keep on retraining my character!
|
|
We have to be able to understand what your opinion is before we can decide if we don't want to care. Jiggy said it when he said you were making a case in bits and peices.Here's what I. Me. This guy and ONLY this guy has a problem with.
If you don't care what I have to say, that's fine. That's why its my opinion.
I think its an abuse for a player to grab a random character generated by someone else and play a session with it. Then turn around a grab a different character and play a session with it. Then turn around again and grab a different character and play a session with it for their third and final XP. Boy that'd be a lot of record keeping wouldn't it? All that gear for new characters.
My understanding is that they are not to be doing this either, that they should technically only be using the offical pregens, however, I think up through first level if they wanted to try out the gunslinger, ninja, and samari pregens they could as long as they were the official pregens. Using a handmade one is not legal
Another abuse would be to play a fighter from 0 to 3XP and then switch to a Sorcerer because Sorcerers suck at level 1.
Doing this in an attempt to buck the system of a 1st level sorcerer yes, doing this because you decide after a couple of games as a fighter that you wanted to be a spell caster, that would be ok
Another abuse would be to cherry pick what class you are going to play for a scenario because this one needs class X. Then for your second XP doing the same thing because this particular scenario needs class Y. Hey might as well keep on retraining my character!
You're right in saying that that is a potential abuse of the system, however, I would see that moreso at higher levels and all they are going to get out of it is a chronicle to start a brand new character so it's really the player missing out.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
If you don't care what I have to say, that's fine. That's why its my opinion.
If we didn't care what you had to say, we wouldn't be trying to hard to get you to clarify. (Thanks for doing so, btw.)
I think its an abuse for a player to grab a random character generated by someone else and play a session with it. Then turn around a grab a different character and play a session with it. Then turn around again and grab a different character and play a session with it for their third and final XP. Boy that'd be a lot of record keeping wouldn't it? All that gear for new characters.
I'm not sure I see much difference between this example and Mike's stated intent of "...try out their character, get a game or two under their belt to see if it falls under what heir character concept is, and then settle on their final build..."
How does trying three different builds before settling on a final one differ from the above quote? Too many changes? Changes are too drastic? Something else?
Another abuse would be to play a fighter from 0 to 3XP and then switch to a Sorcerer because Sorcerers suck at level 1.
On this one I agree, to some extent. Had you mentioned this earlier, I'd have said so.
Another abuse would be to cherry pick what class you are going to play for a scenario because this one needs class X. Then for your second XP doing the same thing because this particular scenario needs class Y. Hey might as well keep on retraining my character!
This one probably has more to do with metagaming than abusing the retrain rules, as you could do the same thing with a stable of different characters under different numbers.
|
|
Your abuses are my good uses - see my example of having a table of new players running through First Steps, and helping out by filling a role they need, and applying the chronicles to a character you actually wanted to play but overlapped one of the new players' concepts.
I'm all about using the rules to have the NPCs screw the PCs up, and pretty darn permissive otherwise...
Right, that's that Lawful Evil thing again.
Ronnie makes a level 1 fighter. Gains his first XP playing Rise of the Goblin Guild. Ronnie likes playing PFS. He then goes to his next game day GM'd by Tetsujioni who happens to be running first steps part 1 that day.
Ronnie looks at the players and sees they already have 3 fighters at the table. He thinks to himself, Oh well I'll just retrain my fighter to be a wizard for one day and help this group out.
I belive that situation is an abuse of retraining. And also very lame.
|
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
I'll cop to the following: I see that a party playing at subtier 4-5 has a fighter, a barbarian, and a rogue. I brought a 5th-level monk, but that would create a party with no healing whatsoever. So I decide to play 4th-level Kyra instead. When I make that decision, I'm sort of standing in for Ambrus Valsin, who looks at the pathfinders assembling in the briefing room and then out in the hallway, and grabs a cleric.
Do you consider that abusing the pre-gen system, sveden? If so, there we go. If not, then I don't see the problem with doing it at 1st level, either.
--+--
My understanding is that they are not to be doing this either, that they should technically only be using the offical pregens, however, I think up through first level if they wanted to try out the gunslinger, ninja, and samari pregens they could as long as they were the official pregens. Using a handmade one is not legal
That's legal, too. For example, the d20pfsrd site has a selection of PFS-legal "pre-fab" 1st level characters, of all base races and base classes. If a new player wanted to run an elf druid, I'd be happy to give her the pre-fab elf druid, and let her adjust the character after one or two sessions so that it was more to her liking.
|
|
Here's what I. Me. This guy and ONLY this guy has a problem with.
If you don't care what I have to say, that's fine. That's why its my opinion.
I think its an abuse for a player to grab a random character generated by someone else and play a session with it. Then turn around a grab a different character and play a session with it. Then turn around again and grab a different character and play a session with it for their third and final XP. Boy that'd be a lot of record keeping wouldn't it? All that gear for new characters.
Another abuse would be to play a fighter from 0 to 3XP and then switch to a Sorcerer because Sorcerers suck at level 1.
Another abuse would be to cherry pick what class you are going to play for a scenario because this one needs class X. Then for your second XP doing the same thing because this particular scenario needs class Y. Hey might as well keep on retraining my character!
Alright, I'll bite.
I can agree that if someone is trying very, very hard to abuse the rule then sure, they can, but it doesn't really change much.
Most abusive thing about retraining rules. no consumables are consumed during the first 3 adventures. buy/use a bunch of scrolls "re-create" your same dudder, buying those scrolls again ect. - this is the most abusive rules-loophole in the whole thing.
The most awkward thing is playing a pregen till level 2, then having no purchases recorded on sheets till level 2, so you have like 1400 starting gold.
People playing a new guy every week finding the one they like the most? That seems like a huge positive. People doing so at cons? huge positive.
abusing usage of a couple hundred GP (note who cares) or picking a stronger level 1 class then switching it up. Shrug (also sorcs are nuts at level one if you spend all your money on scrolls that don't get used lol).
Lets be honest here, PFS is incredibly easy to cheat in. There is no tracking of consumables used it's pretty easy to just erase stuff. You can pretty much retrain feats, skills, bloodlines, ARCHTYPEs ect if you want with no way for people to check.
This game uses the honor system, is it abusable? sure, are people likely to abuse it? probably not. The people who were going to abuse it already get to do much worse things if they want.
If you're really worried about rules abuse, there should be a "chronicle 0 Sheet" that has starting skills, class, archetype(s), race, items, ect. and GMs should be required to write down every scroll used, or acid flask, ect so that every item a player has is tracked. Mark down charges of wands on the chronicle 0 sheet as well.
TL;DR
The positives of the retraining systems vastly outweigh the negatives; If people are going to abuse it, the advantages are tiny and a VC can simply say "dude com'on"
