I thought the Beast master and Broodmaster (is that the correct name? I dont have my books with myself right now, im thinking of the Summoner Archetype that can have multiple Eidolons) archetypes are fun ideas because I love commanding a squad of minions around. But The way they are written they dont seem to work. Dividing your ECL among several creatures will only make your total power expnentially smaller. 3 level 3 creatures are nowhere near as powerful as a single level 9 creature for example.
So I wanted to pick up some ideas on how to scale multiple animal companions/eidolons better.
So my first idea was insted of splitting the Character's ECL among "minions", all of them have the same level which equals the ECL of the Character - The number of minions.
now i'm not sure wether for example 2 level 18 Eidolons would be too powerful compared to one level 20 eidolon.
Alternatively for a slightly stronger nerf it could be "Character ECL - number of minions*2"
Feats like boon companion would apply before substracting the number of minions to prevent a character from having 3 or 4 full level minions. So boon companion can only add anyting if your character is multiclass or a low level beastmaster (where he would still apply the ranger's -3 to effective druid level)
Thoughts and other ideas are appreciated.
This is a seriously noble goal you're taking on. They're much maligned due to the reasons you mentioned. But your proposal would make them too good. I'd take 2 Eidolons over 1 Eidolon 2 levels above any day :)
Character level - #minions*2 would mean the second eidolon could appear only at level 6, I think, and both would be at level 2, so worse than before. At 8th level with 2 minions, they'd both be 4th level...at 10th level, that's both at 6th, which is where it finally gets better than the broodmaster. And at that point, most games are almost over, so hmmm...
How about this? CL - #minions is there level, but they need to split the evolution pool. Even that is really good though, so hmm.
Might come up with something later. It certainly is an interesting problem. I think the beast master would be easier to balance out than the eidolon, since Build Your Own options tend to get wonky real fast.
The problem isn't in the Class/Archetypes. It is in the players (no offense meant).
3 level 3 creatures are more powerful in the hands of someone who knows how to use them. Now they will only shine when even in power. Which means every 3 levels they should shine.
Though this is coming from a Miniature Wargamer who can turn a CR5 Kobold encounter into an equivalent of a CR10 in difficulty. Using nothing but NPC building rules.
This is a seriously noble goal you're taking on. They're much maligned due to the reasons you mentioned. But your proposal would make them too good. I'd take 2 Eidolons over 1 Eidolon 2 levels above any day :)
Character level - #minions*2 would mean the second eidolon could appear only at level 6, I think, and both would be at level 2, so worse than before. At 8th level with 2 minions, they'd both be 4th level...at 10th level, that's both at 6th, which is where it finally gets better than the broodmaster. And at that point, most games are almost over, so hmmm...
How about this? CL - #minions is there level, but they need to split the evolution pool. Even that is really good though, so hmm.
Might come up with something later. It certainly is an interesting problem. I think the beast master would be easier to balance out than the eidolon, since Build Your Own options tend to get wonky real fast.
i guess it still needs some work. The level progression of the minions should become slower at higher levels i guess. Maybe if we had the ECL-#M from levels 1 through 5. At level 6 we have ECL-1.5#M and at level 12 and up ECL-2#M
Ive gone over that and it still doesnt work, im still at 2 level 18 minions but if i went for for example ECL-3#M it end up with too weak minions the more you take. for example on level 20 you'd have 5 level 5 minions. Which is way too weak.
So what we need is a system where the power difference becomes smaller each time an additional minion is added.
I'm not very good at math and i don't think it should involve an overly complex mathematical formula. MAybe it should be fixed with a table instead.
OK please explain your math... and what exactly it means.
ECL = Effective Class Level of the master
#M = Number of Minions
The result would be the level for each minion.
ECL = Effective Class Level of the master
#M = Number of MinionsThe result would be the level for each minion.
I could get that. I meant how did you end up with 2 level 18 minions?
in the ECL-#M version.
in the ECL-#M version.
I thought you meant with the ECL-(2*#M) version
Personally I think the Brood Master is good enough it just requires good tactics. As shown with Scraggletoof and Nibbler/Nasher
I don't know either of these.
I just look at the two archetypes and see 5 level 4 companions in a level 20 encounter getting squished in one round
Sorry I referenced a goblin brood master from a Comic I read... really sorry.
If you look at numbers alone 2 level 10 minions are going to be inferior. You Also have to take into account the X factor that is tactical infinity. In this game Tactical Infinity is the swinging factor between a TPK and the Party not taking a single hit.
The thing with having mass amounts of Minions requires tactics. If you are good with tactics you can make any grouping powerful. Heck I took 10 Level 1 Warrior NPCs equipped them in Magical gear alongaide my level 12 Wizard and stomped a CR 15 encounter.
Okay I came up with a new idea, this one is a little less simple to pull off as it takes a detour over some rules usually only relevant to GMs.
So here it is,
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Multiple Animal Companions or Eidolons
Certain classes or archetypes such as Pack Lord Druids, Beast Master Rangers and Brood Master Summoners all are allowed to take more than one Animal Companion or Eidolon, each of these so called "minions" are weaker than the single companion of a regular character of the same class in return, the following rules allow dividing the power between your minions in a way that does not leave one or more of them so far behind in power level, that the individual creatures become obsolete at higher levels. The rules could also be applied to possible archetypes or prestige classes with multiple Familiars.
When using multiple Eidolons/Animal Companions ("Minions") look up the XP reward for an encounter of a CR equal to your Effective Druid/Summoner level ("Master Level" or "ML"). Use this value as a "Minion Pool" to choose Minions from in a similar fashion as an encounter is created from. Each minion costs a number of points from the Minion Pool equal to the XP reward for a CR encounter equal to the minion's desired ML. A minions ML can never be lower than 1.
For example a Level 9 Pack Lord Druid (CR 9=6.400 XP) could have two Effective Druid Level 7 Animal companions (CR 7=3.200) or one EDL 8 (4.800) and one EDL 5 (1.600) Companion. Alternatively, she could have One EDL 7 Companion and two EDL 5 Companions. Or even four EDL 5 Companions. More combinations are possible of course.
Brood Masters do not divide any of their Eidolons' base statistics between the eidolons, but rather each eidolon advances the same way as a single eidolon equal to its ML. However a brood master's eidolons are still one size category smaller than regular eidolons and the brood master must have the minimum number of eidolons stated by the Eidolon Brood class feature. In order to gain additional Eidolons he must still buy the large and/or huge evolutions but the evolution point cost and prerequisites work as follows.
The Aspect and Greater aspect class features, as well as the Large and Huge evolutions for the Summoner's eidolons are purchased from the Evolution Points of all Eidolons. When buying these evolutions, you divide the cost as equally as possible between your eidolons subtract the evolution points cost from all individual eidolons' evolution pools. When gaining additional Evolution points through special abilities or feats like Extra evolution, these points must be divided between eidolons. With all evolution points added or subtracted this way the evolution pools of each eidolon may never differ more than one point from any other eidolon in the brood.
For example a level 13 Brood Master has four small Eidolons, he buys the Huge evolution for 6 EP to make all eidolons medium sized. This means he has to subtract 2 points from two eidolons and one point from the other two. At level 15 he gains the Extra Evolution feat, which grants him 2 extra Evolution point. He must add one point to each of the two Eidolons that currently have one less EP each than the others.
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That was a mouthful, but if the Encounter creation rules aren't completely broken, this shouldn't be either.
I know some people on this board think thread necromancy is evil, but feedback on this new idea would be appreciated :)