I am looking for help with archetype combinations clarification. I was thinking of making a Hungry Ghost Monk Master of Many Styles/Unarmed Fighter, however am a little unsure of the specifics on how archetypes work. When your have (2) archetypes from the same primary class (ie: Hungry Ghost Monk/Master of Many Styles) do you have to take them both at first level ? For example, do I have to take Hungry Ghost Monk and Master of Many Styles at level 1 (forfeiting flurry of blows), or could I take 1 level of Hungry Ghost Monk, then at level 2 take a level of Master of Many Styles ? The second option would give me a lower bab at higher levels, higher saves, but more feats at lower levels. The Master of Many Styles also says it replaces Flurry of Blows, however since I learned Flurry with Hungry Ghost Monk, I just wouldn't be able to flurry if I am combining styles. I could go from either scenario and take Unarmed Fighter to gain another Style Feat without meeting the requirements (Unarmed Fighter gets a Style Feat at level 1 (replaces the bonus feat option)).
Is there anything paizo has official written somewhere by paizo on either scenario ? I know hero labs requires you take take same class archetypes at level 1. After level 1 no more archetype options show up for the monk class. They do show up for other classes though (ie: Unarmed Fighter from the Fighter primary class).
Any input would be appreciated.
Archetypes are not separate classes. You take levels in Monk (Hungry Ghost/MoMS) rather than taking them separately. You also cannot take two archetypes alongside each other if they both conflict with each other at ANY level, so go through both of them rigorously to make sure it's legal.
Edit: HG/MoMS is a legal option, however note that you lose flurry of blows completely for taking the latter.
Here's the rules on combining archetypes from the PRd (just the relevant section):
When an archetype includes multiple class features, a character must take all of them—often blocking the character from ever gaining certain familiar class features, but replacing them with equally powerful options. All of the other class features found in the core class and not mentioned among the alternate class features remain unchanged and are acquired normally when the character reaches the appropriate level (unless noted otherwise). A character who takes an alternate class feature does not count as having the class feature that was replaced when meeting any requirements or prerequisites.
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature. For example, a paladin could not be both a hospitaler and an undead scourge since they both modify the smite evil class feature and both replace the aura of justice class feature.
LearnTheRules wrote: Archetypes are not separate classes. You take levels in Monk (Hungry Ghost/MoMS) rather than taking them separately. You also cannot take two archetypes alongside each other if they both conflict with each other at ANY level, so go through both of them rigorously to make sure it's legal.
Edit: HG/MoMS is a legal option, however note that you lose flurry of blows completely for taking the latter.
So it sounds like I am stuck with losing Flurry of Blows, not combining saves, and not really getting the bonus monk feat a second time. However what I do gain is my standard bab progression, unarmed damage progression, ac progression, slow fall progression, speed progression, and able to take advantage of combining 3 styles at level 8. Granted, all could be a little delayed if I take any levels of Unarmed Fighter.
Has Paizo ever posted a rule on either viewpoint of archetype progression or archetype mixing in any of the forums ?
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keybrdmn wrote: LearnTheRules wrote: Archetypes are not separate classes. You take levels in Monk (Hungry Ghost/MoMS) rather than taking them separately. You also cannot take two archetypes alongside each other if they both conflict with each other at ANY level, so go through both of them rigorously to make sure it's legal.
Edit: HG/MoMS is a legal option, however note that you lose flurry of blows completely for taking the latter.
So it sounds like I am stuck with losing Flurry of Blows, not combining saves, and not really getting the bonus monk feat a second time. However what I do gain is my standard bab progression, unarmed damage progression, ac progression, slow fall progression, speed progression, and able to take advantage of combining 3 styles at level 8. Granted, all could be a little delayed if I take any levels of Unarmed Fighter.
Has Paizo ever posted a rule on either viewpoint of archetype progression or archetype mixing in any of the forums ? Not sure what you're asking here. The rules I quoted above from the Advanced Player's Guide are very clear about exactly how Archetypes work in conjunction with each other, so there aren't really any "extra" rules on how archetypes progress outside of the ones they gave when they introduced the concept. Go to the Paizo PRD and look under the "Core Classes" chapter of the Advance Player's Guide. The section on Alternate Class Features lays it all out for you.
You take your base class (monk in this instance) and then each archetype is essentially a "kit" that you apply to the clas, replacing some of the class features with a new and distinct set of abilities.
As long as another archetype doesn't replace or alter the same ability, you can take as many as you like (though it would be hard to take more than 2 in most cases).
I think the problem, if I'm understanding your questions correctly, is that you're thinking of your character as, for example, a Hungry Ghost 6 / Master of Many Styles 3, when in reality you're a Monk (Hungry Ghost/Master of Many Styles) 9 as LearnTheRules explained.
Ssalarn wrote:
You take your base class (monk in this instance) and then each archetype is essentially a "kit" that you apply to the clas, replacing some of the class features with a new and distinct set of abilities.
As long as another archetype doesn't replace or alter the same ability, you can take as many as you like (though it would be hard to take more than 2 in most cases).
I think the problem, if I'm understanding your questions correctly, is that you're thinking of your character as, for example, a Hungry Ghost 6 / Master of Many Styles 3, when in reality you're a...
Thank you for reiterating that Ssalarn. It is late and apparently did not click in until now. I will bounce this to my DM and see what he thinks. He has been very patient with all my questioning on my character creation. Funny thing is, we are only starting a level 1 campaign, but I am trying to make sure I don't miss any details and utilize the monk archetype functionality.
In the campaign we are starting, there are (2) ranged combatants, (1) dual wielding ranger, (1) healer, (1) jousting gnome cavalier, (1) rogue, (1) possible necromancer, and me (1) monk. (1) healer for 8 people seems a little stressed, with no other spell caster but the necromancer. I figure by taking the hungry ghost monk, at higher level I will hopefully not need as much healing. My AC won't be as high as the rest as I cannot wear armor. So I figure I can take master of many styles and can be fighting defensively with crane style. With the Crane and Panther Path I will be able to move around striking where needed when attacked, but be harder to hit. With Boar Strike I will be able to add a little extra damage if I can get (2) attacks off. I will probably be more like a damage absorb-er to keep the focus on me while the rest get the enemies with ranged, or the healer focusing on the others that may be in melee.
Thank you all again for your input and feedback.
Just one thing re: boar style. It is widely believed that the first feat is more of a rend ability (i.e. if you hit with two or more attacks it is a once-off 2d6 damage rather than bleed each turn) and I concur. This is most likely a mistake that will be errata'd. You can find plenty of threads about it if you need evidence, perhaps you were already aware of it but many players aren't and build around the feat thinking they'll end up doing 3d6 bleed damage a turn, when bleed damage doesn't actually stack (one of the major pieces of evidence that the feat wording is wrong).
Hope you have fun playing the monk, seeing as you don't have flurry of blows, tiger style and dragon style are both excellent choices as well.
LearnTheRules wrote: Just one thing re: boar style. It is widely believed that the first feat is more of a rend ability (i.e. if you hit with two or more attacks it is a once-off 2d6 damage rather than bleed each turn) and I concur. This is most likely a mistake that will be errata'd. You can find plenty of threads about it if you need evidence, perhaps you were already aware of it but many players aren't and build around the feat thinking they'll end up doing 3d6 bleed damage a turn, when bleed damage doesn't actually stack (one of the major pieces of evidence that the feat wording is wrong). Yeah, my DM and I discussed it as well as it was unclear. Doing that much damage at low level seemed a little much. Though, there is of course nothing preventing em from doing it each round (assuming the enemy takes the AOO on me each round).
I took a look at Dragon Style for the charging bonus and ignoring difficult terrain when charging, however my str isn't huge (str:14, dex:18, con:13, int:12, wis:17, cha:9). I had thought about high str and lower dex, and am still up in the air on it. I was just fairly concerned that at low level the ac at 15 would be too low. Having a dex of 18 puts ac at 17. Granted, it also ties up a feat slot with weapon finesse.
I do like the looks of Tiger Style, and it may work well fused with Boar Style and Crane Style. It won't be until level 8 that I could fuse three styles together. However I basically would attack the opponent with a standard bab with a slashing unarmed strike. When they attack me Crane Wing would deflect, Crane Riposte would trigger and then another slashing unarmed strike at standard bab (with 2d6 bleed damage from Boar Style for that one round). Each attack would have a 5% chance of rolling a crit. Potential damage would be 1d6+2, 1d6+2, 2d6, then 1d4 at the start of the next two turns (if a crit was rolled to trigger Tiger Style). Would of course be higher if I focus str instead of dex.
The monks have a lot of options with archetypes, but they kind of need it. There is a lot of talk on the forums, and I somewhat agree, the monk is not a powerful class ... nor do I think they are supposed to be. They are supposed to be versatile...getting hit in the flurry of combat ...and striking back...like in the kung fu movies. Too bad they can't wear armor :-(
Well you're lucky to be playing a high-point buy from what I can see, monks really shine in that situation. Assuming you're playing a human you might consider dropping charisma and possibly intelligence or even wisdom for more strength, if you can get it to 18 then you could swap some dexterity for wisdom.
AC is not really a concern for a monk, he can boost it with ki and stat boost items quite easily, though the same could also be said about strength. It is harder for monks to boost consistent damage however, so I'd probably go for more strength and not bother with dexterity and weapon finesse. After all, it's generally better to kill your opponent quickly so that they can't attack you, thus negating the need for AC :P
LearnTheRules wrote: Well you're lucky to be playing a high-point buy from what I can see, monks really shine in that situation. Assuming you're playing a human you might consider dropping charisma and possibly intelligence or even wisdom for more strength, if you can get it to 18 then you could swap some dexterity for wisdom. You know, you make a very good point about the higher str and taking the enemy out faster. We rolled stats. Everyone rolled well. We used the 2d6+6 method. Gives you an average point build of 78-80. I had the second highest stats. I was very lucky. We then averaged everyones stats and for those who did not roll as high, they were given points to at least hit the average.
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