This is my first foray into polymorph spells. I read through the description in the magic chapter and the spells I'm looking at which are form of the dragon and beast shape. In either case I have questions that make me think there's a whole other chapter or section I've missed. Mainly, I have questions like what happens to my spell casting abilities, do I gain any magical qualities if the target shape, what about other creature qualities like hit die, etc.
The magic chapter just basically says you become a generic creature of that type with a couple specific modifications and references the target spell in question for more specifics. Those two spells I mentioned go into a couple more specifics but both sources are silent on large swaths of information I see in the bestiary. This is most pronounced in the form of the dragon spells as dragons get a ton of stuff. The base dragon types have a base half dozen or so abilities and form of the dragon doesn't have a list like beast shape.
What am I missing? It almost feels as if you either get anything not mentioned or you only get what's mentioned but nothing I've seen indicates which way it is.
There is also the polymorph subschool info in the magic chapter, which could help with your questions.
There is also the polymorph subschool info in the magic chapter, which could help with your questions.
EDIT: i have just reskimmed the form of the dragon spells, and the 3 versions list what you gain in a fairly concise manner.
I can answer in specifics to your points above that you do not gain hit dice in any way with polymorph effects, and you do not suddenly gain spell abilities of those dragon types. They appear to have a list just like beast shape when i am looking at them.
Form 1: Size M, Str, Con, Nat armor, fly, darkvision, breath weapon, resistance to one element, 2 claws, 1 bite, 2 wing attacks.
Form 2: Size L, everything above is greater bonus wise, plus DR and tail slap attacks.
Form 3: Size H, everything even greater bonus wise, plus blindsense and frightful presence, and resist upgrades to immunity.
The places you need to look at are the polymorph sub school (which you mention), the spell (which you no doubt have already looked at), and the source of the polymorph ability, if it's not a spell (and in this case, it's a spell).
Basically, you get:
Size change, and all the direct modifications that offers (AC, attack modifier, modification to CMB and CMD, and stealth and fly modifiers). You retain your type. Your gear melds with you if not a humanoid (in this case, I believe giant counts as humanoid). If you're not Small or Medium before the change, there are other modifiers. You retain spellcasting ability, provided the new form allows it, with changes to your ability to handle the verbal, somatic, and material/focus components). This comes from the polymorph sub school.
(Edit: actually, size effects come from the rules on sizes, not the subschool - I just included that information here anyway; and I didn't list everything -- this'll teach me to go from memory, but in any case, it's a demonstration of the wealth of information in the magic section).
The spell providing the effect lists other changes, such as abilities, and bonuses to ability scores. If it's an ability that's granting the polymorph ability, it may list other things.
you get exactly what it says you get.
if every ability had to state what it didn't do, that would be rediculous.
polymorph does NOT make you become a generic creature of that type, your type doens't change at all,
polymorph is really more like wearing a rubber monster suit which MAY have a few abilities which MAY be the iconic abilities of the chosen 'form', but it doesn't give you anything except what is explicitly stated.
So the wording of form of the dragon on that first line that states "you become a metallic or chromatic dragon" is just fluff? I would think since that differs from the wording of beast shape that you get everything a dragon gets of the appropriate type (young adult, adult, ancient) EXCEPT where specifically overridden by the spell itself. So, instead of getting 25 str (young adult gold dragon, iirc), for example, I only a +4 for form of the dragon i but otherwise get all other abilities not specifically changed by the spell.
it's fluff... you're wrong.
Citation?
re: spellcasting abilities, you still have your normal ones, but may have problems using them in certain shapes. druids have natural spell to cast in animal form (or plant), that doesn't exist for other casters (core). dragons are considered to be Ok to cast spells because they are dextrous enough with their claws to use magic items, cast spells themselves, etc. humanoids are OK to cast spells, and so are elementals (since they can have any form, use a humanoid one). if a monster can manipulate items with hands, that should be able to do spell casting. the last option is using still and/or silent and/or eschewed spells, in whatever form. (the spell components would need to be dropped and then re-equipped if you are to use them, barring natural spell which lets you continue using them even though they are melded in your form)
search the posts of Jason Bulmahn, Sean K Reynolds, and James Jacobs for 'polymorph' etc.
i didn't make up the rubber monster suit analogy myself.
or you can read the PRPG beta playtest threads where they discuss the rationale for the change in paradigm.
I'm trying to look these up. Talk about a needle in a haystack.
Aha! I seem to have glanced over or spaced the following when making the OP to this thread:
While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +10 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature.
yeah :-)
re: the spellcasting thing, i don't think there IS anything in RAW that spells out what types you can cast spells while polymorphed as... besides natural spell's implication that animals CAN'T... though i wouldn't use that as an across-the-board rule, given e.g. chimpanzees, not to mention bigger questions it would raise about awakened animal spellcasters. but that's how i've seen it played, and have seen as the consensus on the boards.
Well, to be specific I thought of taking the bonded witch archetype (amulet) with the transformation patron. That lets me change into either a humanoid or a dragon. Both of those are capable of normally casting spells as far as I know.
I'd say no. You can only occupy a single 'wrist' slot regardless of the number of appendages. So, since:
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body.
all your gear has been absorbed by your form you'd have no way to remove the other bracers.
Dragons do not have hands and thus you would need to use both Eschew Components and Still Spell. Since they can speak verbal components work properly.
Yes, Dragons cast spells without those components and without those requirements. You are not a dragon.
- Gauss
My bad for going off of memory. I forgot the very last bit 'such as a dragon'.
- Gauss