Edit - Please read the whole post before replying. Changed the title of the thread to more accurately represent the content.
For example, if a Cleric wishes to cast Cure Light Wounds on a willing creature under the effects of an Invisibility spell. Invisibility grants the ally total concealment, and even if the Cleric knows the square his ally is occupying would he not suffer a 50% miss chance when trying to touch his friend to deliver the spell? If an Obscuring Mist spell is active on the ally, for instance, the ally has partial concealment, so would the Cleric then suffer a 20% miss chance? Mirror Image means any attack targeting the caster might randomly hit a figment instead, but a beneficial touch spell is not an attack, so does the Cleric just automatically know which figment is the right one?
Consider it the other way around. What if the Cleric was blind? He would most certainly take penalties trying to locate his allies in order to heal them, so why would he not suffer the same penalties if those allies are obscured or invisible?
I'm interested to see how others house rule this, or if there is some official ruling on whether or not these "beneficial" spells can hinder targeted touch spells cast by ones own allies. For reference, this came up in a game last night where one of my players playing an Oracle attempted to cast Cure Serious Wounds on his Ninja ally, but the Ninja had just spent a Ki point to turn invisible after making an attack. I told the Oracle he had to roll for miss chance and I was solidly berated by my play group for even suggesting it because the spell "is not an attack." Personally I feel that if you have an ability that makes you hard to hit, it affects everything that needs to make physical contact with you, harmful or beneficial.
Thoughts?
They do not have to roll one if the ally is willing.
Situations like a blind Cleric or an invisible character may complicate things, but normally you can simply touch them.
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Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
This was the section that kept being quoted, but my point is that one cannot automatically touch an ally if one cannot detect that ally visually unless one has some other extraordinary ability allowing another means of detection.
Lets take this beyond simple invisibility. At 20th level, a Ninja can become completely undetectable by ANY means. You cannot see, hear, smell, touch or otherwise perceive of them in any way, even while they are attacking you, and even with magic like True Seeing. Not even a God can see them. By the above rule, an ally could still automatically touch them if they happened to be standing in adjacent square. Personally, I don't buy that. They are completely undetectable
In this case, the Oracle had no means of actually locating the Ninja. For all he knew, the Ninja had taken a 5 foot step after attacking and was in a different square. He moved over to where the ninja was, correctly guessed that he had not moved, and touched him automatically, which I don't feel is a correct interpretation of how Invisibility functions.
So let me ask this: If I were to house rule that being under the effects of magic that conceals your location conceals that location from friends and enemies alike, and thus requires allies wishing to cast beneficial targeted spells to roll for miss chance, would you be upset with that interpretation? Would you feel that it's a logical fallacy to assume that attempting to touch an invisible ally is nearly as hard as attempting to touch an invisible enemy? The attack roll is waived because the ally is not trying to evade you, but the fact that he is completely obscured from your sight means there is a chance you simply fail to touch him.
I think it is easiest to assume that the invisible ally could just choose to 'bump' into the hand of the person who is trying to use the touch spell. I *think* a held spell will automatically discharge if this happens, even if the target was a level 20 ninja. As long as the one casting the spell was trying to put his hand into the correct space I don't think this would even take an action on the part of the target.
I can't find the ruling on discharging touch spells, but I'm fairly certain that they automatically discharge when you touch something.
I dont wish to add opinion. Just quoting the rules as written here. Any scenario can be different at the table.
I guess I'm actually looking for an opinion because I feel that this is a vague scenario that lies outside the rules. The rules state that you can automatically touch one willing ally in a round, but I don't think that can be unilaterally applied to every situation, especially when an ally is magically undetectable or otherwise concealed from view.
An official ruling would be nice, but I do not truly expect it, so a poll of opinion would give me a better idea of what people think regarding this situation so I can make a more informed call at the gaming table next time.
I think it is easiest to assume that the invisible ally could just choose to 'bump' into the hand of the person who is trying to use the touch spell. I *think* a held spell will automatically discharge if this happens, even if the target was a level 20 ninja. As long as the one casting the spell was trying to put his hand into the correct space I don't think this would even take an action on the part of the target.
I can't find the ruling on discharging touch spells, but I'm fairly certain that they automatically discharge when you touch something.
It would likely be a free action, but normally you cannot take any type of action outside your turn other than an immediate action unless specifically allowed. So if the Ninja wanted to, on his turn, take a free action to touch his allies outstretched hand and receive the spell from the Oracle who is holding the charge, that's an acceptable workaround, but nothing grants him the immediate action to do so outside his turn. My point is that the Oracle cannot simply automatically touch an ally that is undetectable to him unless he has some means of bypassing the miss chance (See Invisibility, True Seeing, Blindsense, Scent, or some other form of extraordinary sense that allows him to detect a visually undetectable creature). The rule as written may allow it due to being overly broad, but I don't feel that is the intent.
The rules quoted simply states it's not an attack roll when touching an ally, while touching an enemy requires an attack roll.
Attack rolls aren't the issue here, though. The issue is that the cleric can't see the person he wants to touch because that person is invisible.
I would make it a 50% miss chance.
I think there would be no miss chance. Not only is the caster touching a willing ally, as per the rules, but they want to be touched and are making it easy for the caster. As long as you can reach their square. I think it would be a non-action for the ninja to do this. Normally between turns someone in melee can dodge about, parry and threaten etc. The invisible ninja is doing none of this, so would have plenty of time to move an arm to intercept the clerics touch attack.
I think there would be no miss chance. Not only is the caster touching a willing ally, as per the rules, but they want to be touched and are making it easy for the caster. As long as you can reach their square. I think it would be a non-action for the ninja to do this. Normally between turns someone in melee can dodge about, parry and threaten etc. The invisible ninja is doing none of this, so would have plenty of time to move an arm to intercept the clerics touch attack.
The Ninja in question was in melee combat with another creature that he had just struck in combat. The other creature returned the attack, rolling for the miss chance, and hit the Ninja once. The Ninja was obviously dodging about and attempting to avoid the attacks of an enemy who clearly knew his general location and was able to strike him with one of his attacks. Somehow I doubt he had a lot of time in combat to willingly move himself into position for an easy touch from an ally. Additionally, the creature had natural reach and was threatening the Oracle at the time the Oracle touched the Ninja.
If neither of them had been threatened by another creature I might have allowed verbal communication between the two in order to touch on the Oracle's turn, but with both of them threatened by an enemy, it seems logical that a miss chance would apply.
I understand that not everyone would play it that way. Obviously, because we are actually having this discussion, but I wanted to see if there is any rules justification for it and additionally what people's opinions are so I can get a sense of how my group may react if I house rule this one way or the other.
I would allow it without a miss penalty.
The game uses a turn based system to manage action packed combat scenes, but the scenario being simulated is not turn based. The ninja is not just standing there like an invisible plastic miniature. He could easily reach over and contact the healer.
Now this would be different if the ninja is unconscious or unaware of the healer, but that is what a GM is for, to adjudicate the rules of the game within the context of the game being played.
With that said and if I recall correctly, it takes a full round action to find an unconscious, invisible subject if you know what space they're in.
This all reminds me of a adventure when a group of slaves were being slaughtered on the other side of a gate right in front of my character (a Taldan aristocrat). The slaves begged him to open the gate but with a sinister chuckle he told then, "I can't because it's not my turn."
What if BOTH the toucher and touchee were invisible?
The simple answer is that the toucher uses a full round action to find and touch the touchee, then move on.
The complex answer is probably not worth considering.
Well, it is situations like these that tend to fall in the gray area of the game. Yes, folks can quote the RAW and they would be correct in that you only need to roll an attack roll to touch an enemy and not an ally if they were invisible. Then there are others who would get into the debate of "common sense" if you will, by examining the conditions at hand.
Obviously, if you are blind you can not simply just reach out and touch someone in a large room that you are fighting in. Movement is halved unless you succeed at an acrobatics check and if you fail it you fall prone. Given that, if you find yourself in an outdoor area or very large room then you might have problems justifying getting to your ally and touching them. Also, there is combat going on. There may be hazards present that you are not aware of depending on when you were blinded. Did a caster get the jump on the cleric in the surprise round with blind? If so, then the cleric may not know exactly how many enemies and of what kind they are facing, where they are located, what environmental hazards might be present (ever fight on a ledge in a volcano?), etc. After all, is not part of the downside to being blinded being in a weakened state that prevents you from functioning normally?
I tell my players that this is part of the challenge of Pathfinder and RPGs in general. Some DMs choose to be more heavy handed than others but I try to present challenges that my party actually has to try a little and think outside the box from time to time just to survive. In the end, just be fair and reasonable to the party. If you all agree on a ruling then things are going well. Continue to do that and you are doing it right. Debates happen but in the end it is fun that is most important.
This situation came up in a game last week. I was running an oracle who wanted to heal an ally in an adjacent square while surrounded by Obscuring Mist. I had to roll the 20% miss chance. As DM, I would not require the 20% miss chance to touch a willing recipient of a spell. Here's my reasoing:
When you are trying to hit an unwilling target, you need to make a touch attack because the target does not want to be touched and so will be dodging your hand. It's like a game of tag. Add obscuring mist and now it's that much harder to touch him against his will. It's statistically the same as raising the target's AC by 2.
A willing target, however, is not trying to avoid the touch, so this should make it much easier. Without concealment, touching an ally is automatic. With concealment, that target is still not avoiding your touch and could move in such a way as to make it easier. So why the chance of not connecting? Even invisibility should not be a problem so long as the ally knows the caster is trying to pass the magic to him with a touch.
Bottom line, it's worth remembering that the rules are not trying to account for every twitch made during the round. The d20 attack roll respresents the result of a sequence of actions covering up to 6 seconds of time, not just a single swing of the weapon. So it seems reasonable to me that over the course of the 6 second melee, a character who knows his cleric comrade is proferring healing if the cleric's hand reaching into his square can touch him, the character can make small adjustments to movement to facilitate that, even if the cleric cannot see the character. We don't need rules specifying whether such adjustments are free actions, immediate actions, or whatever. No reason to bog the game down with such detail.
This doesn't mean there might never be a situation that could make it hard enough to connect to justify some kind of random chance of failure, but it would need to be pretty severe, such as a silenced deeper darkness so neither the caster nor the target could see or hear the other.
Finally, what's sauce for the goose .... So let players always connect with touch spells on willing allies, no matter the concealment, but that means enemies can do the same. It should all balance out. Don't spoil the fun of the players by making it harder to do things for each other unless there is a darn good reason.