Yepp, it's this time of the month again, and DD has a new house-rule to present.
This time it's the IMPROVED ROGUE.
What's the improvements?
- Good Will save
- Sneak attack starting at level 2, but now attack & damage bonus instead of additional d6. So yes, you'll multiply those on a crit!
- Ranged sneak attacks now within weapon's first range increment, not simply 30 ft.
- Trapfinding & Trap Sense improved and now only one of several possible bonuses (see Rogue Trade).
- A Rogue Talent every level!
- Added all official rogue talents (and most ninja tricks) into one (pretty large) list, including many archetype abilities. Some got canned, some revised, some are completely new. See for yourself.
- Rogues can now take CRITICAL FEATS as if their BAB was equal to their rogue level! (see Critical Talent advanced rogue talent)
STILL TODO:
I am not really happy about the pinnacle ability "Master Strike".
It implies that the rogue is centered around SA, but I would like to have something else here. But I don't know yet.
FINALS:
As always I welcome every constructive critics, such as over- or underpowered abilities, design flaws, possible impacts I might consider, etc.
Thank you all very much.
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Interesting.
Improved? Definitely.
Overpowered? Probably.
I see what you're trying to do there: ultimate customization. But I think it looks almost TOO customizable. The way you're going, your likely to come up with a custom class maker (like the Race Maker in ARG). The problem is that your rogue doesn't feel quite as...roguish. Master Strike is your only possible 20th level ability, as sneak attack is the only consistent class feature.
Let's look piece by piece...
-Good Will Save
I'm ok with this one. Rogues are a bit crafty and part of that could involve throwing off mind altering effects.
-Sneak Attack
Not so sure on this one. With the attack bonus and set damage a rogue's sneak attack is going to be out damaging and out hitting(or at least hitting on par with) a paladin's smite evil with unlimited uses and a less strict restriction (flanking vs evil only). Also it multiplies on a Crit. Seems a bit OP to me. If you want to add the bonus to attack rolls as well as damage you should probably lower the damage significantly. To be honest though, I would throw out the bonus on attack rolls. You are already flanking and/or catching the target flat-footed. That sort of IS the sneak attack's bonus to attack rolls. Adding more bonuses to attack rolls doesn't really make much sense and is very powerful. Having all that bonus damage on Criticals is pretty insane on its own. Not only is it powerful, it makes your rogue pretty much ENTIRELY critical focused in combat...a real shame after all the work you did making them customizable in every other respect.
If you are wanting to improve Sneak Attack in some way, perhaps a more balanced method would be to give a rogue Power Attack-like bonus damage on top of normal sneak attack damage. THAT bonus is multiplied on a Crit, unlike the bonus d6s. Even that, though is a bit much. Perhaps have the rogue's sneak attack only improve every 4 levels, like power attack (1st, 4th, 8th, 12th, etc). For example, at 12th level, the sneak attack damage would be +4d6+8. That averages about 18 extra damage, but the +8 would multiply on a critical hit. It would, on average, do slightly less than the normal sneak attack (though less of the damage is up to chance) but have bonus damage on a critical. Just my thought on a possible alternative.
-Ranged sneak attacks now within weapon's first range increment, not simply 30 ft.
Not really a fan of this in general. The whole idea was that you had to be particularly close so you could spot and target a weak spot more accurately.
Sneak attacking by sniping with a Compound Longbow at 110 feet or a Heavy Crossbow at 120 feet? Maybe throw in the Distance enchantment? Seems a bit much. How can you find a weakness at those kind of ranges? Let alone accurately hit it. If you're not close enough to SEE the gap in someone's armor, how can you target it?
-Trapfinding & Trap Sense improved and now only one of several possible bonuses (see Rogue Trade).
I like the combo, but I would rather see it be a set class feature in addition to the Rogue Trades, rather than one of them. Maybe have it picked up at 2nd or 3rd level automatically.
-A Rogue Talent every level!
Yeah...no. That's way too much. I like that you expanded the list of talents, but one every level is a bit much. I would say, take a few of the ones every rogue needs or makes sense to have (Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Assess Situation, and Improvised Trick[restrict to talents that are usable at will] would be my suggestions). Have those abilities be gained naturally (preferably at odd levels), while gaining a rogue talent every even level like normal. You'll be giving a few extra class abilities this way, but not a crazy amount.
Rogue Trades
I like the idea of this.
I only have two suggestions. The first was stated earlier: Tomb Raider/Treasure Hunter should be gained normally rather than be an optional choice. The second is that I would avoid having any Trades that give a bonus to Stealth. This is more of a diversity issue...let's face it; pretty much every rogue is going to choose the option that gives a bonus to stealth, regardless of character or story consideration.
Master Strike
A list of possible level 20 abilities to choose from might be your best bet. Fits with the whole rogue talent thing. I agree that something other than Master Strike would be good, though. Or maybe an ability that lets Rogues add INT to AC and DEX instead of STR on finesse weapons. (way overpowered anywhere but level 20)
All in all, that would leave a rogue with:
-Good Reflex and Will saves instead of just good Reflex.
-Tomb Raider/Treasure Hunter instead of Trapfinding & Trap Sense (maybe use the old names and just change how they work?)
-Slightly lower Sneak Attack damage, but part of it is multiplied on a critical hit.
-Rogue Trades added as level 1 abilities
-A couple extra naturally gained class abilities on top of the normal Evasion and (Improved)Uncanny Dodge (I still recommend Assess Situation and Improvised Trick)
-A Rogue Talent every other level, but with a lot more to choose from
Anyway, you have some interesting ideas there, and you obviously put a lot of effort into that Talents list. Good work. I hope you find my suggestions useful.
Thank you very much for the reply, though I don't know if I actually agree on your points:
Sneak Attacks:
I read many complains about the rogue not being able to hit... lets say very often. Some vote for giving the rogue a full BAB, but I won't agree to that. I want the rogue not to be "just another combat class". If the rogue is in combat, than he HAS to be "out of enemy focus" or "catch them off-guard".
That's exactly what sneak attack does, at least in part. The only thing missing was an attack-bonus, and that's what I added.
Changing the +d6 into a fixed value is another thing complained about the rogue. In that his sneak attacks don't work well with the critical hit mechanics.
I guess we all agree that +xd6 multiplied by 2 or 3 on a critical hit is WAY to overpowered, so I tuned the d6 down to a simply +3 bonus.
I choose +3 since it's about the average of a d6.
But it still felt a bit too powerful, so in my next version, it will be down to +2.
In addition, rolling one or two additional d6 might be fun, rolling 5 or 7 of them is simply tiresome (at least in my POV).
Ranged Sneak Attacks:
I added this to give the rogue an additional "Sniper" feeling. But I am not very fixed on this change, so if more of you (anyone?) vote against this, I would be okay to drop it again.
Trapfinding/Rogue Trades:
The basic idea was to "reflavor" the rogue so not ALL of them are trap geniuses. So No, I won't change that back to a basic rogue ability.
But I WILL change the "Trap Sense" part into a general rogue talent and give the "Tomb Raider/Treasure Hunter" this for free, so it's similar to all other rogue trades.
As to Stealth bonuses: I pondered about this from the beginning, but I am not so sure if this will really be an issue.
For once it's not a very large bonus, and I can see a lot of player's that would like to take the social skill bonuses.
But one's for certain: I will definitely NOT add a general Perception bonus to any of these.
Rogue Talents:
I don't believe the rogue talents are that overpowered (maybe some are?), and getting a new trick every level is fun, so I will stick to this until more of you (anyone?) tell me it's a bad idea.
In addition, my "Improved" classes are all about flexibility. That's my schtick, so I am trying to give as less fixed abilities as possible.
Not EVERY rogue must or should have Evasion, UC, etc.
Not even Sneak Attack in my POV, but making that one into a rogue talent, seemed like a waste of time, since almost ANYONE would still take it...
Master Strike]:
Yeah... Still not the wiser about what to do with this...
Don't take this personal. Criticism is always more helpful than praise. And there's a lot of it here.
The 30' limitation is actually there on purpose because it's not really fun to have someone from 110' away sneak attacking you and you not even really being able to see them.
I agree with Jedi on most points.
Here is my replacement for sneak attack. The problem with sneak attack isn't the damage, or even the critability. The rogue class doesn't push you towards high-crit range weapons at all, that's just the popular perception, influenced heavily by WoW. The issue really is how often they can do it.
Originally, my replacement was +1 to hit every 4 levels and +2 to damage every 2 levels. The free bonus to hit made them very, very good and after a bunch of number crunching and playtesting, I dropped it. +1/2 their level to hit is even better than that. I strongly recommend dropping that.
A rogue talent every level is just ridiculous. It's also supremely dippable. Dip one level into rogue and bam! You get to take Extra Rogue Talent to get as many as you want. That's the reason why almost every single Menu Choice Option begins at level 2. Getting eye lazorz that melt an enemy you look at is also fun, but shouldn't be done. Honestly, I'm a bit speechless on this one.
Restricting sneak attack to light or usable with weapon finesse is a horrible idea. And not just because there are very, very few ranged weapons that are light. This just drastically reduces the themes available to rogues, and murderates the versatility that's the hallmark of their class.
Rogue Trades are interesting, but once again vastly restrict versatility.
Ambidextrous is about 3 feats for one rogue talent. Which you get every level now. Remove.
Assess Situation: Interesting. My initial reaction is "eugh!". But then I saw the 4th level thing, and it wasn't so bad. Still wary.
I'm not a fan of taking all the archetype abilities and making them rogue talents. It vastly cheapens the idea of archetypes and just turns them into "Pick and Choose LOL", which they were expressly NOT meant to be.
Cunning Maneuvers / Strike: Don't do stat consolidation if you want something balanced unless you know what you're doing. Plus, adding Int to damage is just supremely silly. "Oh, I don't have any idea what you are because I flubbed the knowledge role, but I sure as hell know where to intelligently poke you to deal the most damage!" Cunning maneuvers might be OK if there isn't any ability that lets them base their CMB off their level, not their BAB.
Cunning Will: See above. Only a hop-skip-and-a-step away from lower attribute dependency than is the norm!
Deadly Range: No. Not fun. The rules must work and be fun for both players and NPCs. This is something that has been mostly preserved for three editions and the only way to get around it is through expensive items. It is not a low level ability at all.
Distraction: Giving 8th level abilities from an archetype (see above) at 1st level. Wonderfully bad idea.
Minor Magic's ability to be taken multiple times, combined with the rogue talent every level, almost gets around the whole reason that the original Minor Magic is limited to 3 times per day. The whole point of that was to ensure that rogues couldn't just get touch-AC sneak attacks all day with cantrips. Even taking this three times will be a close approximation of "all day". Four times and it may as well be unlimited for the average adventuring day.
Night Owl: How? How do they get this?
Powerful Sneak: Hey! Might actually be useful now! Not sure.
Rogue Charge: I like the addition of the * to this. Would go a long way to stopping some cheesetastic builds.
Rogue Intuition: Same as Night Owl.
Unbound Spirit: Needs a minimum level or a minimum bonus.
Confounding Blades: get rid of this one. It's been a regular rogue talent since the Beta.
I have a strong hunch that Pathfinder isn't really the game for you. It's not meant to be a "build your own class!" game, which it appears you are trying to do.
First of All I can tell you put a lot of work into this. And I like the way Rogue Trade allows for all sorts of flavors and it gives you an increasing bonus, which is nice. I think it may be a bit too much of a bonus.
If you compare it to the Rangers Favored enemy ablity (I know its different) But the max skill is +10 against one Favored Enemy at lvl 20. So maybe instead of every 2 levels every 3 levels (1,4,7,10,13,16,19)and the maximum as +7 (Lucky Number?)
Sneak Attack: I agree with you on the +2 to damage increments is better than the +3
Ranged Sneak Attacks: I agree about it only being within 30 ft. But maybe you could have a talent that adds 15 ft to the range and then an Advanced talent that adds another 15 ft to the range. (Maximum of 60 ft)
Rogue Talents: I agree with JediSSJ's comment about them getting too many of these. Maybe tweak the Extra Rogue Talent Feat (once every 5 levels or something) and have a few select levels that they do not receive a Rogue talent. At level 20 Could be Master Talent in relation to Master Strike.
Master Strike: I like JediSSJ's idea of a list of abilities. It seems fitting for the way you've made the Rogue Talents. A few ideas could be, having a concealment bonus for a number of rounds per day. Making opponents re roll perception checks to spot you. (Out of combat) Being able to take 20 on one skill check a day in a full round action. (The Perfect Touch.
I really like what you have done so far and I look forward to the next edition.
Thank you all for you input.
I didn't explicitly state that v1.0 was more of a beta really, but whatever.
That's why I post my ideas and hope for feedback. I don't ever assume I made the finally fool-proof version.
So in line with your comments, I made several changes:
- reduced the Trade Bonus to +1 & +1/3.
- reduced rogue talents to 1st, and every even level. Though it looks a bit empty now... (AIS: I want to keep SA at 2nd level to unfavor level dipping)
- Changed or deleted some rogue talents. Added some new.
- reduced the sneak attack damage to +2 (as already said) and changed the scaling attack bonus to flat +INT-bonus (might drop this as well). maybe a bonus every X level to have the BAB equivalent to full BAB?
- I reverted the ranged sneak attacks back to 30 feet and added the condition of "enemy already in melee/threatened". Not sure which wording to use since there are conditions where a target is threatened but not in melee. I don't really like the thing about "SA when target suffing from any condition".
- As I already mentioned in v1.0, I changed "Master Strike" into a "Master Talent" list, though it's still in beta and could use some help.
- Since none of you seemed to have noticed: I already had the "Extra Rogue Talent" changed in the way that you can only take it ONCE for every rogue level you possess.
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@ Cheapy: Dude. Can't you just drop the childish sarcasm and stick to constructive critics? Half the stuff you said was probably true, but with all the banter it's just a pain in the ass no one needs.
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BTW, I was confused as well:
"Confounding Blades" is stated as an ADVANCED talent in the APG, but "Slow Reactions" does (almost) the same thing and is a regular rogue talent!
Anyone an idea about that?
Your revised version looks a lot better I think.
I would still probably throw Evasion and Uncanny Dodge in there as class features (at levels where you don't get anything else). They are pretty basic staples of the rogue in general, like sneak attack.
Speaking of; your idea of changing the attack bonus to make sneak attack function as if the rogue had a full BAB has some merit. Still might be a bit much (what it the point of having a lower BAB if you're almost always getting a bonus to make it full?). Maybe half that value? Not quite a full BAB, but a small bonus (like +1 at levels 1, 9, and 17). Like Cheapy said, I wouldn't restrict the weapons. Most rogues will certainly USE light or finesse weapons, but no reason you can get extra damage for surprising someone with an axe to the spleen.
For conditions for ranged sneak attack, how about denied Dex, or threatened by at least 2 other creatures. Better than just denied Dex, but not as abuse-prone as simply being threatened. Doesn't require as much cooperation from teammates as having two of them flank the target would either (that was my first thought).
Your Master Talents are probably a good idea, though I think Hidden Master is probably too powerful. Probably way to powerful. 60 rounds of improved invisibility that cannot be seen-through or negated in any way. That's more than enough to cover an average--or even unusually large number of battles per day with complete invisibility. Untargetable. Ever.
Usable 3x rogue level per day and undetectable in any way are actually probably both overpowered, even alone.
Maybe specifically see invisibility and blindsense do not work on the Hidden Master and a small bonus to rounds per day (maybe 2/3 level instead of 1/2). That way it's a bit more often and the really low level invisibility foil don't work on it.
You're rogue class is looking pretty good. It does, of course negate the point of archetypes, but it feels like it could work. And you've obviously done a lot of work on it. Keep it up.
The rogue class doesn't push you towards high-crit range weapons at all, that's just the popular perception, influenced heavily by WoW.
I blame the Rapier for it. Being the only one-handed martial weapon to use weapon finesse it sort of the go-to (before dervish dance at least). And it has a high crit range.
Again thank you very much for the constructive feedback.
I already changed the usable weapons to: light or one-handed melee or any ranged. I will not allow two-handed, since it doesn't fit MY concept and frankly, I give a damn about whether or not this would nerf any "build" out there.
I do these revisions mainly for my own fun and campaign and not as to become the "ultimate pathfinder improvement".
If someone else likes it and wants to use it, I'm happy, but if not, fine by me.
Okay, sorry, back to topic:
Have to give the "ranged sneak condition" some more thought. Requiring an already flanked enemy would mean the rogue needs only one ally for melee sneak but two allies for ranged sneak.
I would prefer one ally for both, so maybe just "enemy engaged in melee by a rogue's ally", though the "better" rule term would then be, an enemy threatened (in melee?) by a rogue's ally.
Hidden Master:
I actually c&p it from the Ninja.
Okay I changed it since the rogue doesn't have a KI pool, but the ninja would have 10+CHA+feat ki points, so could cast a minimum of 4x greater invisibility a day with no way of detecting him.
Since GI has a duration of 1 round / level, that's actually 80 rounds of "supreme invisibility"!
But still, you are probably right.
Although we are talking about a LEVEL 20! ability here.
I think a little over-powered is okay here.
Any idea on how to "fix" this (and the ninja...)
Wow. didn't realize that was the ninja ability. Yikes. But a ninja's CHA...even at 20 I doubt it would be a 30 or anything. A +8 at most. So then ninja would have a ki pool of 18 plus feats. Keep in mind that these are used for other abilities as well. Using the invisibility costs 3 ki pool points, so it could be used no more than 6 times a day. Sure it's for 20 rounds a pop, but those can't be broken up or anything.
Wait...oh, I see. You changed the vanishing trick and invisible blade. Yikes. Sorry, but I would definitely change them back. Your way is SUPER powerful. I didn't notice it before. The original costs a ki point and isn't divided up like yours is. Being able to divide the rounds up as you see fit is extremely powerful.
Of course, your rogue doesn't have ki. I can see 2 options for this. One make a rogue talent that that gives the rogue a ki pool, change all the talents that originally used a ki pool back, and make that talent a requirement for those. Otherwise, change everything back except the ki pool part, and make it usable for a number of times per day equal to 1/4 your level (minimum 1). Keep in mind that a ninja is unlikely to spend their entire ki pool on invisibility. It's not fair that the rogue would be able to use it as much as a ninja who did without suffering any penalty from using up their abilities.
If you add the ki pool, use the wording from the ninja (keep the requirements). If you go with a set number of times per day, go with your idea of making it improve vanishing trick/invisible blade instead of being a new ability. Keep it 1/4 level times per day though. The limited use is what makes up for the extreme power of the invisibility.
For Ranged Sneak Attack:
My though was that just having 1 ally threaten was too easy. The rogues doesn't need to position himself into flanking and is out of danger, making it quite a bit easier than even normal sneak attacks.
Conversely, requiring 2 allies to flank the target was too much. It required an extra person and specific positioning.
So my thought was having the target be threatened by 2 people. They don't have to flank or anything, so less positioning issues, but it does require 2 helpers. However, not that I specifically did not say they had to be the rogue's allies. As long as they are hostile to the target, they work. Generally that would just be the rogue's allies, but in a 3-way fight it would make it easier.
Just my suggestions.