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I'm currently in a Kingmaker game, trying to decide what class/build to play. Here's what we've got so far:
Gunslinger (Musket Master)
Ranger (Archery)
Magus
The obvious choice would be a battle cleric - someone to flank with the magus, and provide some divine spells. In fact, that's what I'm playing now, a dwarven battle cleric of Cayden Cailean.
But, I'm not entirely satisfied with this, and am looking for alternatives in case my character dies (or I just decide to switch him out). I would point out that we have no characters with developed social skills (or even decent charisma), something I think will be a real detriment in Kingmaker.
I'm thinking Bard, but having trouble finding a build that I really like. I think combat wise the Archer Bard stands out the most, but we already have two ranged. . .
A battle oracle would be more of a charisma based version of what I'm currently playing, but I'm just not really feeling it.
Suggestions?
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The obvious choice here is Bard, there are a TON of great archetypes for it, I recommend the Sandman, which trades out insipre courage (Big loss), but gets trapfinding like a rogue (Big plus), which is something your party seems to be missing. They also get heal spells as arcane casters, which your current party is missing, and to be honest if you require healing IN combat, then something probably went badly.
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Inquisitor is a pretty useful class as well, and gives you as much potential healing as the bard, plus a sweet set of Judgements that give a nice set of rolling self-buffs in combat. Inquisitors can melee pretty decently with bonus feats like Precise Strike and Shield Wall (though someone probably needs at least a buckler for this to be worthwhile), and they get repeating crossbows for free when range is the ticket.
The Anger Inquistion even gives you the ability to Rage like a barbarian after a few levels. Just to throw out an option other than the Bard :)
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Inquisitor is a pretty useful class as well, and gives you as much potential healing as the bard, plus a sweet set of Judgements that give a nice set of rolling self-buffs in combat. Inquisitors can melee pretty decently with bonus feats like Precise Strike and Shield Wall (though someone probably needs at least a buckler for this to be worthwhile), and they get repeating crossbows for free when range is the ticket.
The Anger Inquistion even gives you the ability to Rage like a barbarian after a few levels. Just to throw out an option other than the Bard :)
Hmm. . . I've never played an Inquisitor. Do you have a build/archetype you'd suggest for this group?
The only role that benefits more from static bonuses to attack/damage (i.e. inspire courage) than archer is dual wielder (and arguably summoner). The gunslinger likely won't need the attack bonus, but otherwise that's one of the better party synergies with inspire courage I've seen. If playing a bard, definitely don't archetype out of it!
Just because they want a healbot, doesn't mean that's all you can do. A Bard, Cleric, or Oracle and make use of Summon Monster, which adds more melee power to the group and soak up a few attacks you don't have to heal later.
Do you think an archer bard in this party is a bad idea? As in, I'm leaving the Magus to die alone in melee combat?
I'd be more worried about the lack of control than the lack of a second frontliner. Without others to take the heat from him, the magus will likely need to open combat with a defensive self-buff (e.g. mirror image) if he can't pre-cast it. That's not a bad thing. Magi can be very durable if they want, and with this party composition, it should be evident that it might be needed.
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Do you think an archer bard in this party is a bad idea? As in, I'm leaving the Magus to die alone in melee combat?
Yeah, probably a bad call.
A melee Bard's a totally valid option, though. Indeed, with a two-handed weapon, Inspire Courage, Arcane strike, and Power Attack, a melee bard can do some serious damage. AC suffers a bit unless you want to go Dawnflower Dervish or another finesse build, admittedly, but there are ways around that.
That's what I'd go with, anyway.
If you want a bit more healing you could also go Inquisitor (fun, melee effective, good skills, better healing spell list than a Bard) or something like Battle Oracle (enough healing for anyone, plus full 9 level spellcasting and some other coolness)...but I'd likely go with your first idea and be a Bard. Of course, my love of Bards is well known, so my advice may be more than a tad biased.
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Well it will probably cause more problems than it will solve but why not play a paladin? Good social skills, limited divine casting and they can tank.
I don't really have a good reason not to, other than I've just done it before and want to try something different. But yeah, it's a good suggestion, Paladin would fill all those roles (and be OP while doing it).
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@Kevin
Inquisitors are like the bards stern badass cousins who prefer the wrath of their god to musical instruments. If your party needs a melee character but you want to retain versatility and have some healing, I'd look at Divine Favor and Cure Light Wounds as your opening 1st level spells. Inquisitors also get to choose one of their deity's domains and gain all the associated powers, so a Domain that boosts your and/or your allies effectiveness in combat (the Anger Inquisition from UM or the Good Domain with the Archon Subdomain from the APG are good choices) helps boost your effectiveness. Your Judgements are one of your best features, since they're rolling buffs for damage, accuracy, healing, defense, and others that you can rotate through as a swift action to suit the situation round by round.
Some of their orisions are pretty good too, Sift is a great spell if you don't have a dedicated rogue to scout things out room to room.
That could work pretty well, actually. If you take the Whip feats from Ultimate Combat, it get's even better.
Have you considered the Court Bard(APG)? You trade out Inspire Courage for it's exact opposite.
The Rage Subdomain is a good choice for Inquisitors, especially if you grab Superstitious and Witch Hunter as your Rage Powers. :)
Alchemist with infusion and craft potion, craft wand ranks. You can basically make any and all cure potions and cure wands. Plus bombs. And status effect bombs. And mutagens.
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What do you think about that Controller Bard build that Treantmonk made, where you're tripping people with a whip and throwing nets and such?
No idea. Never seriously seen it played. Works okay in theory...
Alchemist with infusion and craft potion, craft wand ranks. You can basically make any and all cure potions and cure wands. Plus bombs. And status effect bombs. And mutagens.
Alchemists lacka caster level and thus the ability to take Item Creation Feats other than their automatic Brew Potion.
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A melee Bard's a totally valid option, though. Indeed, with a two-handed weapon, Inspire Courage, Arcane strike, and Power Attack, a melee bard can do some serious damage. AC suffers a bit unless you want to go Dawnflower Dervish or another finesse build, admittedly, but there are ways around that.
The Magus in the group is going the finesse/dervish dance route. It might be interesting to have a tag team like that, and I could optimize for dex instead of having dex and str.
I hate it that the inspire courage is self only though (although having it as a move action is awesome).
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The Magus in the group is going the finesse/dervish dance route. It might be interesting to have a tag team like that, and I could optimize for dex instead of having dex and str.
I hate it that the inspire courage is self only though (although having it as a move action is awesome).
It doubling is no slight thing either. +4 each to hit and damage at level 5? Not bad at all.
It can also still buff the party every way but Inspire Courage, such as Good Hope and Haste.
Alchemist with infusion and craft potion, craft wand ranks. You can basically make any and all cure potions and cure wands. Plus bombs. And status effect bombs. And mutagens.Alchemists lacka caster level and thus the ability to take Item Creation Feats other than their automatic Brew Potion.
Brew Potion (Ex): At 1st level, alchemists receive Brew Potion as a bonus feat. An alchemist can brew potions of any formulae he knows (up to 3rd level), using his alchemist level as his caster level. The spell must be one that can be made into a potion. The alchemist does not need to meet the prerequisites for this feat.
Class Skills
The alchemist's class skills are Appraise (Int), Craft (any) (Int), Disable Device (Dex), Fly (Dex), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Survival (Wis), Use Magic Device (Cha).
All Craft skills are class skills for the Alchemist. Considering they use their alchemist level for Brew Potion I am not sure they "have no caster level". Bolding is my own on the quote.
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All Craft skills are class skills for the Alchemist.
Rogues, Barbarians, and almost everyone else has all those, too. Doesn't mean they have a caster level for Item Creation Feats.
Considering they use their alchemist level for Brew Potion I am not sure they "have no caster level".
They have a Caster Level for Brew Potion specificaly...but never receive one for anything else. So they can't use it for Craft Wand. This has been clarified by the Paizo folks a few times as well, feel free to look it up on the boards.
I'd go with Oracle, probably. If you want melee, I'd either Lore or Nature mystery to get Charisma instead of Dex to AC (Dex looks like it's definitely taken care of in this group), and then you can dump dex and have good spell DCs and good fighting ability. The party seems to be lacking a high charisma character and divine spells. Boom. You got both with one class.
And for healing, meh it's fine. As long as you can use a wand and get people to chip in for it, you should be good (...usually).
You know what isn't suggested enough? Using the actual Heal skill. It's pretty useful when you have down time or need to get rid of a poison or disease and you don't have the right spells.
Actually an evangelist cloistered cleric would be pretty good for your party. It would cover buffs, outside healing(in combat healing is a wasted action most of the time), debuffs, skills, and you could flank with your magus to give him +2 to hit if you really wanted to.
I'm not completely convinced you need to help the magus flank, btw. I honestly think a divine (or arcane, like witch) who focuses on casting could help the group out a lot more than another damager.
All Craft skills are class skills for the Alchemist.Rogues, Barbarians, and almost everyone else has all those, too. Doesn't mean they have a caster level for Item Creation Feats.
Considering they use their alchemist level for Brew Potion I am not sure they "have no caster level".They have a Caster Level for Brew Potion specificaly...but never receive one for anything else. So they can't use it for Craft Wand. This has been clarified by the Paizo folks a few times as well, feel free to look it up on the boards.
So yes, an alchemist can craft a wand of any formulae they know. Cure light is 1st level formulae, cure moderate is 2nd level formulae, and so on.