Spell Questions that came up this weekend


Rules Questions


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Control Water
When using this spell to raise water can you flood a large room (within the area/level limit of the caster) from a small puddle?

Acid Fog
If a creature is immune to acid is it immune to all the effects of Acid Fog including the movement and vision penalties?


Yes. Though, your GM may rule there isn't enough water to draw from so you can't say, take a goblet filled with water and drown a room. The spell text hints that there is a source of the water as the lower application pushes it into the ground so the raise application hints that it draws from the ground instead.

Yes.

Sovereign Court

Well the second one is easy. Creatures immune to acid are not immune to the other effects of Acid Fog due to that immunity. They just don't take the 2d6 acid damage.

As for Control Water it does appear to be allowed to work that way. Nothing in its description or heading gives any indication that it shouldn't work just fine to raise the water from a puddle, which would then overflow and fill the area. After all a 7th level Cleric can create 14 gallons of water with an orison over 14,000 times a day if they really wanted to, so a 4th level spell should be quite capable of making a puddle overflow.


Buri wrote:
Yes. Though, your GM may rule there isn't enough water to draw from so you can't say, take a goblet filled with water and drown a room. The spell text hints that there is a source of the water as the lower application pushes it into the ground so the raise application hints that it draws from the ground instead.

Well that’s basically the issue I'm looking for comment on (I'm the GM). In a 10x10x10 room with a tiny puddle (say a gallon of water) can a creature flood the room using control water? I would think yes because the only material listed as required in the spell description is "a drop of water". Otherwise, it seems the spell is either useless or extremely difficult to use to raise water. How would you ever figure out if there was enough water to rise up unless you were in a large ocean?


Conflicting answers on the Acid Fog. I ruled that the creature was immune to all the effects of Acid Fog but in hindsight and fairness I think I was wrong.


That's up to you to decide, then. Does the puddle connect to a larger supply of water beneath the ground that can be drawn from? I would guess yes as water doesn't puddle unless either it is on a water tight surface or the ground is super saturated. The spell is control water, not create water, so if there's no other water to be had besides that gallon, then no dice. That said, you might be able to rule that gallon could be used to suffocate one creature at a time. That is, if we're trying to make sense with what a gallon of water can do.

Sovereign Court

A creature who has Immunity Acid is only immune to acid damage. It would need to have something like "Immunity Fog Spells" or something similar to ignore all the effects of Acid Fog.

Your just fine letting the other spell flood the room, it make more water then there is. Imagine it like a really souped up enlarge person or reduce person, only it works on water.


Acid Fog has the acid descriptor. How are they not immune?

Sovereign Court

Buri wrote:
Acid Fog has the acid descriptor. How are they not immune?

It references solid fog. I suppose it would be up to the individual DM to rule if the solid fog part of it is included when a creature is immune to acid.


Morgen wrote:
A creature who has Immunity Acid is only immune to acid damage. It would need to have something like "Immunity Fog Spells" or something similar to ignore all the effects of Acid Fog.

Yeah. I'm convinced I goofed on that one. I'll have to make it up to the players. :)

Morgen wrote:


Your just fine letting the other spell flood the room, it make more water then there is. Imagine it like a really souped up enlarge person or reduce person, only it works on water.

I agree. I don't want to bother tracing all waterways back to their sources and doing a volume calculation to see if the source can fill the volume of the room each time the spell is used. In addition, the reverse (lower water) gets wierd as well. What if the water is in a sealed tank and the water has nowhere to go? Is the spell useless? I think the enlarge person is a good example of “making something out of nothing”. I could see it getting a little crazy with someone going around flooding rooms by using a waterskin a drop at a time, but that’s better than the above alternatives, I think.


Morgen wrote:
Your just fine letting the other spell flood the room, it make more water then there is. Imagine it like a really souped up enlarge person or reduce person, only it works on water.

In your games I would always carry a water bag on me. Instant win unless creatures inside a room could breath under water.


cibet44 wrote:
I agree. I don't want to bother tracing all waterways back to their sources and doing a volume calculation to see if the source can fill the volume of the room each time the spell is used.

Or you can just say there is in a yes/no fashion. :)


Buri wrote:
cibet44 wrote:
I agree. I don't want to bother tracing all waterways back to their sources and doing a volume calculation to see if the source can fill the volume of the room each time the spell is used.
Or you can just say there is in a yes/no fashion. :)

True, I could. What about the lower water example from above though? Would lower water work in a sealed tank?

It sounds like you feel Control Water is more like an outdoor type of effect where the caster is essentially moving water from one natural location to another, not really an indoor type of abilty. I can see that.


I would say no. Why? It doesn't make sense. Where would the water go? The spell mentions nothing about creating or destroying it; simply manipulating what's there.


"Control Water" has some ambiguous wording, but this sentence, "If the area affected by the spell includes riverbanks, a beach, or other land nearby, the water can spill over onto dry land" seems to imply that to flood an area you need access to large amounts of water.

If the ruling is that a small puddle can flood a room, there's no need to carry a bag of water, just cast "create water" and then use the resulting puddle to flood the room. In fact this could be done as a team activity, one caster creating the puddle, another flooding the room with it.

I would probably rule that "control water" doesn't "create water", but I would allow the spell to effectively double the amount of water present, drawing the water from the air or sucking it up through the ground. No real logical rationale for the "double the amount of water" ruling, just feels right to me.

Acid resistance is only resistance to acid damage not all effects associated with acid. Acid fog effects other than damage would effect an acid resistant creature.


You're right, AD, on the other effects of acid fog. Admittedly, I just looked at the spell to see if it had the acid descriptor rather than reading the spell description. :)


Buri wrote:
I would say no. Why? It doesn't make sense. Where would the water go? The spell mentions nothing about creating or destroying it; simply manipulating what's there.

So Enlarge Person is diffrent? Both are transmutation but Enlarge Person seems to work just fine without the extra material and it is a much lower level spell. Hmm.

Maybe the key here is the area of Control Water. If we use the area as a minimum to cast the spell it makes it easy to determine if the spell works. So:

Control Water requires water in a volume of 10 ft./level by 10 ft./level by 2 ft./level in order to have any effect.

So a wizard (6th level spell = minimum caster level 11) would require an area of water at least 110ft by 110ft by 5ft to control. A cleric (4th level spell = minimum caster level 7) would require an area of water at least 70ft by 70ft by 3ft to control.


All transmutation magic says is that it changes the properties of something. So, given how the spell description itself reads, is the reason I say what I say. Given the vagueness of the transmutation school itself, it's a bit difficult to make comparisons and say two things are equal.

Sovereign Court

Buri wrote:
Acid Fog has the acid descriptor. How are they not immune?

Well you need to know what Immunity actually gives a creature.

Immunity (Ex or Su) wrote:

A creature with immunities takes no damage from listed sources. Immunities can also apply to afflictions, conditions, spells (based on school, level, or save type), and other effects. A creature that is immune does not suffer from these effects, or any secondary effects that are triggered due to an immune effect.

Format: Immune acid, fire, paralysis; Location: Defensive Abilities.

So a creature that is only Immune acid, is only immune to acid damage. As I said, if it said something about being immune to cloud effects or the spell specifically you'd be fine, but it likely doesn't.

Also, I totally think it's fine for a 4th level Cleric spell to fill a room up with water. If you used a water skin that's fine with me. Not like it's a huge debilitating thing give how most rooms have things like doors and windows for water to flow out of and it doesn't really help the party to have it full of water either in most cases.


Morgen wrote:


Also, I totally think it's fine for a 4th level Cleric spell to fill a room up with water. If you used a water skin that's fine with me. Not like it's a huge debilitating thing give how most rooms have things like doors and windows for water to flow out of and it doesn't really help the party to have it full of water either in most cases.

No, but it can hurt the unprepared party pretty badly, which it did in my game. I've never run into the issue before so I wanted to get some perspective on how other GMs handle it. No consensus here though. I've read good arguments either way.

I think developer intent was definitely for a large body of water only but that's not spelled out in the description anywhere, probably should be. Maybe as I suggest above.

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