I didn't say the GM was doing it, I said he was aiming to do it. And I'm glad you expected me. I hope dinner's ready, I'm famished. Hey, hope you don't mind if I drink your milk, 'cause I just did.
Naive and simplistic? But I worked so hard on that adventure! Do you know how hard it is to make a gray ooze just as challenging as four ghouls? It's really hard. Please don't dismiss the fruit of my labors.
Anyways, it's exactly what you said. A PC gets knocked out every fight. Sorry I didn't write a play-by-play, the combats were really intense. I could tell the players with the unconscious PCs were really excited to roll those stabilization checks!
My scenario does not assume the players know what you're up to. All they know is a character goes to negatives every fight. They can work out either that it's intentional, or you're making combats extra-difficult by mistake. Those are literally the only two possible causes (besides them being at fault, and since your scenario seems to be assuming the players are quite competent, we're ruling that out).
I have had some players who were asking to be killed by how they were playing. Instead other players would either knock them out or I would send the party after them as dopplegangers.
KC, I really wish you could play a game at my table.
I'd play an orc, just so you'd have to kill me honest-like. I ain't puttin' up with any unconscious characters, y'hear me?
I would say the opposite. Saying casual tabletop gamers don't mind death is like saying casual poker players don't mind getting crushed. They'd still probably like to do well, they just don't want to have to put a huge level of time and effort into it.
Therefore, I recommend you make games for casual gamers fairly easy and understandable. Casualties are fine, but don't seek them out.
Like i've told all of my players. 1, bring two characters to the table, pick which you want to play. 2, always have a second character as back up. We are playing an adventuring fantasy game with all kinds of things in it. Dragons and magic to name a few. Hell our real world is so dam dangerous its crazy, heck you don't even have to go looking for it, you could get hit by a bus. Our fantasy games that we all play would be just as dangerous if not more so. An the fact that our collective dumb-asses (the pc's) are purposely going out and looking for trouble, people are going to DIE. Nuff said. As to how often? There is no answer. If they play smart, well eventually something will overcome them. But the vast majority of players are going to do something stupid at one time or another, and end up in someone's tummy.
KC, I really wish you could play a game at my table.I'd play an orc, just so you'd have to kill me honest-like. I ain't puttin' up with any unconscious characters, y'hear me?
Ferocity only works when your in negative hit points it doesn't make you immune to nonlethal damage.
I started this thread! =) I'm really glad I started this thread XD
How challenging would you make a game for a group of casual gamers?
Same as any group really, start playing, solicit feedback, revise.
They might like hard mode, they might not.
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There are always so many views on this, but Pax Veritas made some good points.
Honestly, character deaths happen...and the frequency varies. It is a mesh of a variety of factors, some controllable...some not. You do need to make certain that the challenge rating matches, but I am leary of those who stated that there shouldn't be character deaths or no more than 1-2 over extended time frames.
While it is important to remember that a GMs job is to provide an enjoyable time, it is also important that the players remember that it is just a game...and like any game that includes random elements, nothing is guaranteed.
If there are never any character deaths or they are so rare players are shocked when they happen, you need to up the challenge rating. A GM should make every effort to see that the game is challenging without creating a sense of despair or hopelessness for the players.
I admit that my players refer to me as the killer GM, not because I have a habit of killing off my PCs, though. In fact, I typically only lose 1-3 characters per entire campaign. However, whenever they enter a combat, my players are always sweating bullets wondering if that combat will be the combat when they buy it.
In my campaigns, I make 2 assumptions regarding my monsters. 1- they have a brain...and 2- they want to live, too. As such, my monsters THINK. This makes my players think, plan, work as a team and role-play. Their combats are tough, and I don't mean just from a die roll perspective. But when it's over, if they have also used their heads, then they have survived (I'm also careful to remember my players are heroes designed to beat unbeatable odds and the purpose is that they are supposed to get through it), but most importantly, every one of them walks away with a feeling of accomplishment.
They never forget they are heroes...fighting seemingly insurmountable odds.
Ferocity only works when your in negative hit points it doesn't make you immune to nonlethal damage.KC, I really wish you could play a game at my table.I'd play an orc, just so you'd have to kill me honest-like. I ain't puttin' up with any unconscious characters, y'hear me?
Technically, nonlethal damage puts you in 'negatives', so doesn't it still work? I think the rules might be mum on it. Your interpretation makes sense, but I kind of like the idea of it being impossible to just knock an orc unconscious. :P
This conversation would be a lot easier to carry on if I played poker.
Anyway, it really depends on the players. If they enjoy challenge, give 'em challenge. If they're casual in the way I assumed, go easy.
Bah. Human Fighter. Endurance, Diehard and we're still in business.
In the campaign i'm currently playing in, our DM reminds us that death is always a possibility (i've already lost one PC and had a second one kicked out of the party) but he doesn't try to kill us.
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They never forget they are heroes...fighting seemingly insurmountable odds.Heroes? What would you define as heroic?
May you give examples?
Perhaps I'm being critical here, but....You honestly need a definition for what the average person would consider heroism? Really?
As a mother who has two sons who work in law enforcement and search and rescue, I'm going to let this one go.
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Knocking a PC unconscious in every combat? I don't know about your players, but I find that obnoxious. If I found out a GM was aiming to exclude a player from the game every time a fight takes place, I'd either demand he cut it out or I'd just leave. Besides, story-wise, it ends up sounding ridiculous.
The brave heroes fought the troglodytes. The wizard was knocked unconscious, but the heroes won, and the wizard was healed.
The brave heroes then went into the next room to face the deadly gray ooze. The fighter was knocked unconscious, but the heroes won, and the fighter was healed.
The heroes advanced into the third room, and faced four ghouls. The ghouls knocked out the wizard and the fighter, but the cleric destroyed them. He healed his comrades, and they advanced.
The heroes fought a giant frog. The frog knocked out the rogue before being killed. Out of healing, the heroes made camp.
Next Day: Three more KO's! Hooray!Also, I've never liked the idea of the GM cheating regularly. Sure, nudging a couple rolls to prevent an early end to the story is fine. But fudging just to make sure combats go as you like? The PCs have the right to win or fail thanks to their own ingenuity and luck, not thanks to the game master wanting them to make it to the BBEG. You aren't the only one telling a story here.
With you 100% KC. I hate it when GMs decide that every friggin' fight should be a "Take the PCs to their limits" type of ordeal. My pc would be like "I keep gaining levels and seem to have exactly the same stuff going on and almost die in every fight? I need to quit this sh!t or I'm gonna die soon!" and retire if he didn't get better....
A good GM will throw easy encounters at PCs sometimes so they can feel the power they've gained. If the every encounter for 15-20 levels leads to almost the same end result then the GM is doing a really sucky job.
Then, when is it ok to kill PC's?
There is no right nor wrong time for it.
Personally, I prefer to avoid killing the characters of the players when I am DM, but I let the dice decide and I also rain down destruction when they do stupid stuff like name their nation in Kingmaker "Das Land"...
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They never forget they are heroes...fighting seemingly insurmountable odds.Heroes? What would you define as heroic?
May you give examples?
Perhaps I'm being critical here, but....You honestly need a definition for what the average person would consider heroism? Really?
As a mother who has two sons who work in law enforcement and search and rescue, I'm going to let this one go.
If I may... I study comunications on a foreign country, so context tells me my definition of heroism and yours may differ.
I'm pretty sure if you have two sons law enforcement our views of heroism are drasticly different. So I would appreciate if you elaborate.
I am in favor of regular PC fatalities (even when I am a player). I began playing in the early 1980's in the 1st edition era, where PC demises were frequent and expected. If there is no risk of harm or demise, why are you playing the game? If you're interested in heavy RP, as many clearly are; then leave the dice (and hell, the rulebooks too) at home, and have the GM just tell you what the outcome is!