Die, PCs! Die!


Gamer Life General Discussion

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The Exchange

So... a really weird question. How often should a GM kill PC's?
Pls, both players and gamesters may answer!

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Not very often IMO, but talk to the players about their preferences first. Tastes differ.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'm running Kingmaker and averaging about a PC per book.


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If the players ever feel the GM is killing PCs, then the GM is killing too many. So long as the players feel the story and/or the NPCs are killing PCs, then that's just enough PC killing.

The Exchange

Then, when is it ok to kill PC's?

Liberty's Edge

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When they have it coming due to their own actions, and when the luck of the dice dictates.


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The dice tell many tales of weal and woe. Some are obituaries for those fallen attempting to KILL THE BAD GUYS AND LOOT THEE BODIES!!! Most are the tales of those whose corpses are looted and buried in shallow graves.

The Exchange

Zahariel wrote:
When they have it coming due to their own actions, and when the luck of the dice dictates.

I've been on a game where the challenge rating was just to high and the GM started killing PC's left and right. The problem was that the strategy we choose wasn't the strategy the GM wanted us to choose, so he blamed us for choosing a bad strategy.

Really don't think we deserved it that time. From then on we played defensively with that GM, which was kinda lame cause the whole "role playing" aspect went to a sencond state.

So, could you be more specific on what you mean when you seay the PC's have it coming?


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The GM should never be actively killing the PCs. The world is a dangerous place for adventurers and they can often get into trouble which can sometimes lead to the PCs' deaths. The GM's goal should never be killing the PCs. If it happens it happens. If there is a goal for X number of PC deaths though, I would question the GM.

The Exchange

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Turin the Mad wrote:
The dice tell many tales of weal and woe. Some are obituaries for those fallen attempting to KILL THE BAD GUYS AND LOOT THEE BODIES!!! Most are the tales of those whose corpses are looted and buried in shallow graves.

=D like your style!

The Exchange

Bob_Loblaw wrote:
The GM should never be actively killing the PCs. The world is a dangerous place for adventurers and they can often get into trouble which can sometimes lead to the PCs' deaths. The GM's goal should never be killing the PCs. If it happens it happens. If there is a goal for X number of PC deaths though, I would question the GM.

Very helpful, thanx =)


I never set out to kill PCs.

I let the dice and the players' choices kill PCs.

As Bargle the Infamous says-

"We all take our risks, here in the dungeon."

Sovereign Court

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PC death is a reality of the game. Too much theater without a challenge ultimately creates the feeling of invincibility that ruins the verisimiltude of the milieu-perforce the game master must use care to propose a challenge, yet not abuse his power agressively, lest the players think the opposite instead is true, that the GM is out to kill characters.

Depending on your group, and your personal tastes, you may for example go out of your way to give players every benefit of the doubt when a perilous situation threatens to kill a PC. On the other hand, you may set expectations at the beginning of your campaign that "the guardrails are off."

If you were playing the game in the 1980s and 1990s rarely did a PC die, unless it was during the final epic battle at the end of a massive campaign arc. The exception to this being, chiefly, those engaged in rpga or other tournament play--wherein most players expected some PCs to loose their lives in dangerous dungeons. Prior to this, during the age of 1st edition or OD&D PCs reduced to 0 hit points would often require a full week of rest in convalescence prior to returning to adventuring.

Now, in a modern sense circa 2000+ player death seems plausable but rare-a good balance to strike. In my homebrew games from 2006-2008, we lost a PC about once every six months. Recently using the Pathfinder ruleset 2008-2012, I've found that the -CON function of HP does manage to keep the threats very real, but not eliminate for good the PCs that players take great care developing.

Over the recent years, in my weekly Monday group, I've set expectations that "the guardrails are off" meaning I don't even track hitpoints anymore as the GM. I just play the encounters as designed, and provide damage. Usually PCs fall unconscious, get stabilized, and return to adenturing after only a brief lapse of consciousness.

In any decade, the idea that the threats should appear to be lethal, keeps the players on their toes, and makes for a thrilling victory that isn't robbed by fudging or whatnot. Players who survive the big fights feel more victorious, and inevitably, the GMs game appears heroic and memorable.

When I hear about GMs trying to kill characters, it seems they or the players who tell these lavish tales do not understand the game. The GM already runs the gods--whyever would the GM need to "try" to do anything when he reigns supreme. If anything, a good GM will not be antagonistic, but rather a fair guide, and a good judge of what situations warrant character death, meaning allowing the adventure to unfold as it should, per the dictation of dice or context, as a result from the PCs decisions.

A good rule of thumb might be not to let characters die due to unnecessary dumb stuff, designing encounters that are fair, balanced, with a good element of challenge, yet not unbeatable.

Context is king. Dumb choices on the other hand, may mean the PC dies dumbly. Such is the nature of adventuring.

If a GM is killing more than one character every six months, well 1-2 anyhow, or the occasional TPK (total party kill) where everything just happens to go wrong... then I would recommend the GM review the challenge rating (CR) of the encounters being built. Too easy--and the PCs walk all over the story in arrogance, too hard---and the players go home feeling robbed of a fun time. Good deaths, really good deaths, are both memorable and exciting, and good players can handle good deaths, even bad ones, so long as the GM has cared for setting the right expectations, and following suit with good in-game descriptions and clues that could avoid danger. Players missing clues, not taking head of grievous warnings, or stepping foolishly will meet their demise swiftly, and perhaps for the better.

I was talking to Tracy Hickman recently who has a great and funny, if not eerily true view, albeit a harsh one on PC deaths. He explained that keeping your game interesting should often involve killing boring characters. I tend to both agree and disagree, that is, I would put it this way: When in the course of the story, the GM finds PCs to be devoid of interest or acting in ways that completely detract from the story, or behave in ways of complete non-participative dullness, perhaps it's time to kill that character in favor of the hope that the player will make a more interesting one, or simply leave the group. LOL I don't really practice this, but as an anecdote, it surely crosses the mind of most GMs when faced with players who don't participate in the roleplay, provided that is the type of game intended to be run. All of this completely aside from the previous paragraphs... as I've reviewed also Hickman's hilarious views in his XDM Xtreme Dungeonmastery book. Too funny.


How many times must we go over this? The GM should not be making sure the PCs die. He should not be "killing" them.

Now, if you mean, what would be the normal quotient of PC death in the average game, and are hoping you are not making the game too hard and beating that number too often, that's a completely different story.

But if you're actively looking to kill them, and are hoping one of us will give you license to do so by telling you how often you should just drop rocks out of the sky, then you deserve everything that's coming to you.

Silver Crusade

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I was hoping he meant "The PCs, The"

:(

Sovereign Court

I've been struggling with that same question. It depends on your group and the situation.

In one campaign I went through 8 characters in 9 sessions. I was bringing backup characters to every session and even the other players were going 'Isn't that a bit much target someone else?' (Admittedly they were all logical deaths nothing against the DM.) By the end I didn't even bother with logical reasons for my character to be there and I realised that I no longer remembered what was going on and nor did I care since the character would die before then end of the session. That is going too far.

On the other hand no deaths makes the PCs lose the thrill of the combat since there is no real penalty for failure. Players get bored and just want to move on rather than feeling pleasure from a hard fought fight.

You need enough danger to make the PCs feel threatened but not so much that it makes them throw their arms up in the air and no longer care about the adventure.

The way players can react to that is different so it is up to the DM to make that judgment call because only you know your players


"Die Plane, Die!" (For Mikaze)


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No one who speaks German can be a bad GM!

The Exchange

Bruunwald wrote:

How many times must we go over this? The GM should not be making sure the PCs die. He should not be "killing" them.

Now, if you mean, what would be the normal quotient of PC death in the average game, and are hoping you are not making the game too hard and beating that number too often, that's a completely different story.

But if you're actively looking to kill them, and are hoping one of us will give you license to do so by telling you how often you should just drop rocks out of the sky, then you deserve everything that's coming to you.

I'm not looking for a quota of how many PC's I should be killing, I just thought the title was funny! =D To be honest, I find your reaction very true and very funny. I'm a player myself, and I wouldn't enjoy ruining other players fun. But I might have a little evil Muahaha hidden there somewhere.

The story is simple. WE NEED TO CHANGE OUR GM! He is too fond of the rules, and too cruel. I just wanted to know if all players and GM's feel like me. Since my group is pretty hardcore on challenges, and some of them would dive head first into a gelatinous cube, I just wanted to know and compare the average expectancy of death in an adventure both on PC's and GM's.

If anything, I like to have fun, and I like people around me to have fun too =D. The thing is, I just convinced my girlfriend to play pathfinder with my group, or any group for that matter, for the first time, with the sole condition that I GM. So, I have to respond to both my group and my special someone.

P.S.: I still feel I can do mischief without killing characters >=D
Example: Carbuncle!

The Exchange

I HAVE A BETTER QUESTION NOW!

What can I do to the PC's to keep them excited and challenged besides killing them?

I know I'm answering my own question here, but:

>The orc tribe overcomes the adventures, but the Shaman leader inclines to not killing them. "We might get a great fee if we sell them as slaves! Keep the women though, it might be time we breed half-orcs to this tribe." Says the Shaman with a lust about he's black oil eyes. Chained and blinded the party is guided up hill to a where about unknown.<

>=D Muahahaa!

What do you guys think?


Maybe the war chief feels that the old shaman's lust is getting in the way of his connection with the spirits. After all, no true shaman would ever suggest that the tribe openly welcome diluting the strong blood. Clearly, he must be put to death so that a new shaman, true to the spirits and the old ways, can take over. And maybe the PCs escape during the combat, or join it and kill them all. Or form an alliance with the orcs. I'm just spitballing based on what you've already thought of, feel free to ignore it.

The Exchange

The Dread Pirate Hurley wrote:
Maybe the war chief feels that the old shaman's lust is getting in the way of his connection with the spirits. After all, no true shaman would ever suggest that the tribe openly welcome diluting the strong blood. Clearly, he must be put to death so that a new shaman, true to the spirits and the old ways, can take over. And maybe the PCs escape during the combat, or join it and kill them all. Or form an alliance with the orcs. I'm just spitballing based on what you've already thought of, feel free to ignore it.

And thats the type of Initiative I love from this community =D

Your opinions on what could I do to challenge PC's without killing them? Or at least entertaining them? (I'm fairly new to this GMing thing, I only GMed twice)

Liberty's Edge

Maulium wrote:

I've been on a game where the challenge rating was just to high and the GM started killing PC's left and right. The problem was that the strategy we choose wasn't the strategy the GM wanted us to choose, so he blamed us for choosing a bad strategy.

Really don't think we deserved it that time. From then on we played defensively with that GM, which was kinda lame cause the whole "role playing" aspect went to a sencond state.

So, could you be more specific on what you mean when you seay the PC's have it coming?

You make a good point.

Examples of characters having it coming:
- Inside a dungeon, one character decides to separate from the party and go exploring on his own. He (or she) stumbles into the lair of the BBE Monster of the week and sees its hoard. Said character tries to sneak past the monster to get to the loot, and when discovered, tries to kill it instead of running away.

- The low-level party ignores the warnings of NPCs and attacks a stronghold they were told is full of extremely dangerous villains. They are surrounded, archers on the walls aiming at them, and told to surrender. They refuse. Evil warlord praises them for their courage but warns them that they either surrender or the archers will fire. The fighter spits at the warlord's feet and insults his mother.

Basically, this kind of situation. If the dice are against them, they will die (since as a GM I roll in the open, no fudging either for or against them), but otherwise, only when they really ask for it.

The Exchange

Zahariel wrote:
Maulium wrote:

I've been on a game where the challenge rating was just to high and the GM started killing PC's left and right. The problem was that the strategy we choose wasn't the strategy the GM wanted us to choose, so he blamed us for choosing a bad strategy.

Really don't think we deserved it that time. From then on we played defensively with that GM, which was kinda lame cause the whole "role playing" aspect went to a sencond state.

So, could you be more specific on what you mean when you seay the PC's have it coming?

You make a good point.

Examples of characters having it coming:
- Inside a dungeon, one character decides to separate from the party and go exploring on his own. He (or she) stumbles into the lair of the BBE Monster of the week and sees its hoard. Said character tries to sneak past the monster to get to the loot, and when discovered, tries to kill it instead of running away.

- The low-level party ignores the warnings of NPCs and attacks a stronghold they were told is full of extremely dangerous villains. They are surrounded, archers on the walls aiming at them, and told to surrender. They refuse. Evil warlord praises them for their courage but warns them that they either surrender or the archers will fire. The fighter spits at the warlord's feet and insults his mother.

Basically, this kind of situation. If the dice are against them, they will die (since as a GM I roll in the open, no fudging either for or against them), but otherwise, only when they really ask for it.

If I may, I will reply to this answer with a HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAH!!!! ah... good times =')

Guess they can try to climb out of the avernus now =) or try to overcome the Demon Lords unnarmed XD wonder how that would end ^^


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Another alternative to scragging the buggers' beloved characters is maiming and disfiguration instead of outright death.

"This scar, Shelob. This one, troll-spear. This waffly-looking one, cooked a bit too close to a lava flow 'fore them big eagles plucked us up and we partied hard."


about every 400 important rolls, or every 40 sessions one really dead PC, and I'm not talking about killing one for a plot device.
In other words, 10 times per session you throw 2 d20s, if it comes up 2 times a 1, someone is going to die.


It depends on the players. Some people accept character death a lot better than others. Some people get mad if you let them live. This is one of those "talk to the players" issues. If you get a mix of players, then mix it up.

Another idea that was presented to me was to give out hero points(optional APG rule). Those that don't want to be saved by the GM don't have to use them, and those that don't want to die can.

Sovereign Court

You know, there should always be at least one PC death. It reminds the other players that they are vulnerable and teaches the player with a dead character a good lesson... like don't be a spellcaster that has no AC and dumped dex, then proceed to run into an unexplored room to roll around in a pile of gold... because the gibbering mouther hiding inside will eat you every time. That taught me to look before running.


Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
No one who speaks German can be a bad GM!

Anyone who writes that clearly hasn't experienced one of my players' attempts at GMing. *shudders*


@Midnight_Angel
noone who speaks German can be an evil man.

Shadow Lodge

Love this thread!


Please Don't Kill Me wrote:
You know, there should always be at least one PC death. It reminds the other players that they are vulnerable and teaches the player with a dead character a good lesson... like don't be a spellcaster that has no AC and dumped dex, then proceed to run into an unexplored room to roll around in a pile of gold... because the gibbering mouther hiding inside will eat you every time. That taught me to look before running.

Gold Golem. Just sayin'. =)


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I don't think a GM should kill PC's on purpose (as in actually setting out to kill a character, setting them up against impossible odds and stuff like that). PC's die, sure, but it should be through their own stupidity or just sheer bad luck.

If I'd end up with a GM who purposefully butchers characters just for the heck of it or because he doesn't like the way you look at him/her I'm gone.


I have always felt that in order to create dramatic tension there must be some kind of credible threat to the PCs. I never look to actually cause player deaths and certainly not TPKs but about 10% of my planned encounters are "Epic" or 2-3CR above APL. That said I have seen pcs die in encounters that were at APL or even below APL. These unfortunate events sometime occur out of bad luck sometimes bad decisions either way I am okay with it. At a rough guess I think we have a PC death once every 3-6 months and a TPK about every 18 months. They never like it Pc death but I dont here too much griping.


@Cuàn, on the other hand there are just players who don't know when to run. In my opinion a GM has every right to set up a fight against impossible odds, if running or negociation peace stays a possibility.
Otherwise you get that Dragon Ball Z feeling, every episode the protagonist doubles his strength, but somehow he meets people that are always barely beatable, never more, never less.

Scarab Sages

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As a GM, I try to kill the PCs all the time - I just rarely try assiduously hard to do so.

I look at my role as portraying a dangerous world. I try to be true to the tactics and methods of the antagonists I choose, while trying to amp up "teh drama". I create problems for the players, but I never try to cook up solutions to them myself - that's their job. Of course, I have to keep an open mind and go with the flow when they're being clever, and I don't get too attached to my creations.

I usually have 1 or 2 PCs die per campaign, give or take.


I am on board with the "Let the dice sort them out" train of thought. Sometimes bad things happen to good people, it's the law of the west.

When I start a game I make sure my players understand if they put themselves in an impossible position, such as the one at the keep someone mentioned above, to borrow a quote from Blazing Saddles...

"Son, you are on your own"

Have I fudged dice to stop a PC from dying, sure, I think we all have especially if it is something totally random. However, if the players bring it on themselves they are going to get what they have coming.

One additional thought.... I ALWAYS try and kill my players. The bad guys should get a fair shake in the deal. My bad guys do everything they can to try and win/stay alive. They will use every resource they have, fight dirty, be sneaky and unhanded and pull no punches.

I still almost never manage to actually kill a player, but my bad guys always give it their all.

Silver Crusade

I have run 34 AP volumes and I have caused roughly the same number of PC deaths. That's about right.

Last session was an interesting point my players scouted the enemy stronghold and found a back entrance (rather than head up to the front door). In my opinion they did everything right. Unfortunately the back entrance took them straight to the BBEG of the whole area who then took out the Rogue in a round of combat.

I realised I had a TPK on my hands. Now i'm not adverse to a TPK but this left a bad taste. If I fought to full capacity with this monster the players would have zero chance. They would effectively be punished for being sensible. So I deliberately chose substandandard tactics for the monster and turned what could have been an exection into a tough fight.

That's what I want, tough fights. The odd procession to make the players feel mighty is cool but for the big fights I want risk. Players feel better about their successes if they are made to work for them.

Sovereign Court

I agree completely about changing tactics for intelligent BBEGs, especially if the BBEG kills one PC in the first round. Arrogance, overconfidence or just plain underestimating the rest of the PCs based off a one round kill are all great motivators to turn the most tactically inclined BBEG into one who decides to toy with the "heroes" who are obviously out of their depth.

That said, I am firmly in the camp of the dice decide when it is time for a PC to die, with the caveat that a GM has the option to occasionally (read once in a blue moon) fudge the roll.


I think how often you should "kill" (or set the challenge level high enough to seriously threaten a PC "kill") depends on what level the PCs' are. Prior to 9th level, death is serious business: basically, roll up a new character (not fun). After that it is decreasing amounts of gold and inconvenience. By 17+, you can't effectively "kill" a PC, except by old age. If you drop a PC to -Con, throw the body in lava, Disintegrate the vapors, and wipe out the Cleric's prepared spells, the PC will be back with no ill effects after 8 hours of rest.

My general rule is prior to 9th, you have to be really stupid to die. After that, death is just another means of challenging the party.

Silver Crusade

For me it depends on what baddie they're facing.

If it's an animal, or someone with low moral (like a gobbie), then I won't put my full heart into killing them. Some will even run away screaming if they take any damage.

If it's an insane sorcerer who already has a massively high bodycount.
then I will do everything in that monster's power to kill the PCS, and he or she will fight to the death.


Aim for near death of one or two PCs in every challenging encounter, and be at peace with the result if you should miss in either direction; be it slightly too easy or two dead PCs.

A TPK represents a major miscalculation (except, perhaps, the final battle of a long campaign).

After the challenge math is fixed, the GM's job is to be an impartial arbiter of monster choices, not to tip the scale in favor of PC death.

GMs who revel in player death are fools. It's like superman boasting about jumping over a park bench. Rather, prize the ability to bring all the players as close to the brink of death as possible, such that neither you nor they know the outcome of the story.

Silver Crusade

Evil Lincoln wrote:

Aim for near death of one or two PCs in every challenging encounter, and be at peace with the result if you should miss in either direction; be it slightly too easy or two dead PCs.

A TPK represents a major miscalculation.

After the challenge math is fixed, the GM's job is to be an impartial arbiter of monster choices, not to tip the scale in favor of PC death.

GMs who revel in player death are fools. It's like superman boasting about jumping over a park bench.

I will admit, though I wasn't aiming for it, I got a slight feeling of satisfaction when I killed the powergamer's character, after he bragged to me that nothing could kill his PC, and had been whining about "easy encounters"

it ended with 3(out of six) dead PCs.
I was simply trying to challenge him, not my fault he epiclly failed his reflex save on a fireball.

Truth be told, I prefer PC dismemberment.


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I like all of the above advice. My approach is:
- Understand your world. What are the enemies' motivations? What would they be most likely to do in XXX situation? Play the enemies as NPCs, not as 'monsters out to kill the PCs'.
- Accept the dice. Sometimes your monsters end up being complete and total fools (Trifaccia in Crown of Fangs fumbled his PER roll twice in a row. I let the paladin eviscerate him for his troubles). Sometimes your monsters perform epic levels of damage in a single blow that turn PCs into jelly. (Kessle in Stolen land took their front-line fighter from 26 HP to -17 in a single blow; unfortunately, he fell right next to a healer, but she was on the map and willing to take the AoO to save him).

Fortunately, my party is usually pretty intelligent, but here are four examples (I started with three, but I talk a lot):

EXAMPLE 1: The near-TPK
In Runequest, the party was infiltrating a troll stronghold. I had already mapped out all the trolls' movements, including all 8 Great Trolls meeting in the kitchen between shifts to discuss anything they'd seen. Yeah, the party camped in the kitchen. I killed 2/3 the party, the remaining PCs surrendered, and I allowed that the trolls were secure enough to ransom off the survivors. If the trolls weren't so well-defended, I might have had them just execute the rest of the party. But the NPCs played in character, no matter the consequences to the PCs.

EXAMPLE 2: The 'sad, sad BBEG'
In Scarwall, they were approaching a certain BBEG infamous for near-TPKs. But I read the descriptions out loud, they paid attention to all the details and the surroundings, and CAREFULLY scouted out the situation before coming near ANYONE. BBEG met half a dozen fully-buffed, Death Warded nasties with a paladin's Aura of Justice. Yeah, he didn't last 2 rounds, but I accepted that good tactics combined with good rolls can turn your epic fights into epic routs.

EXAMPLE 3: The 'over the top' fight
My PCs are starting RotRL and I wrote massive background stories for them, including 3 NPCs and 3 riding animals that have to die in order for the story to proceed. Instead of the 'GM cut scene' that I personally despise, I'm tripling the number of enemies. For 1st-level characters. But the enemies will go after the NPCs first (and I made sure that this would be 'in character'), giving the PCs two rounds to decide what to do. If they charge forward to try to save the NPCs in a heroically suicidal attempt, they're going to die. I know it. They'll know it. But I'll certainly allow it for dramatic purposes. And there's a situation where the players can personally decide whether or not to kill themselves.

EXAMPLE 4: Another one
I had a similar situation in Kingmaker: I rolled up a 3-troll encounter for a group of 1st-level PCs. If they had done anything OTHER than run like heck, I would have happily killed any PCs the trolls spotted.

Long story short, I don't go out of my way to kill PCs, but if they make stupid decisions they die. I like the 1 death/module other GMs have suggested; that shows that they're playing at just about the right level. I'd *hope* they'd be more careful in later modules and drop that to 0 by module 4, but you never know what wackiness your players will come up with.


Maulium wrote:
Zahariel wrote:
When they have it coming due to their own actions, and when the luck of the dice dictates.

I've been on a game where the challenge rating was just to high and the GM started killing PC's left and right. The problem was that the strategy we choose wasn't the strategy the GM wanted us to choose, so he blamed us for choosing a bad strategy.

Really don't think we deserved it that time. From then on we played defensively with that GM, which was kinda lame cause the whole "role playing" aspect went to a sencond state.

So, could you be more specific on what you mean when you seay the PC's have it coming?

Some examples from my campaign some years ago:

Low-level characters exploring a dungeon go down a corridor and kick open a door to find their old enemy the Zombie Master. While they are fighting the Zombie Master's minions, he uses a power that he possesses to call more zombies (that he placed ahead of time in a nearby room). These zombies advance and attack, cutting off the party's escape route. After a hard battle the party cuts its way free and escapes.

You may be wondering what in in the above paragraph says "the PCs have it coming". The answer is "nothing". They had no way to know that the Zombie Master was behind the door (although a detect evil would've revealed that something pretty nasty was lurking there) or that zombies were lurking nearby (although exploring nearby rooms accessible without opening doors first would've revealed the zombies). Still, the group did nothing stupid here. The second time that they fell into the exact same trap is another matter, and the third time is yet another!

Even then, I did not say to myself "these guys are stupid, I'm going to kill one of 'em", I simply let the dice fall where they may (my usual practice). Keep putting your neck on the chopping block, and you're going to get chopped.


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If it happens, it happens. Don't look to kill them, but challenge them. Someone is going to fumble a role eventually, and a bad guy is going to get lucky eventually.


Whenever I hear Hatfield singing Die My Darling I think about running a game.


Simple guideline: If you, the GM, set up an encounter and think "yeah, that should probably kill some PCs. Perfect." then you are likely killing way too many PCs.

...unless that encounter was set up as a reaction to the player's declared actions to do something extremely dangerous.

Example: Your party just ran into a pair of young-ish dragons that tried to bait them into a trap and eat them... and after the encounter they realize the dragons have a system of tunnels beneath the ruins of this city that likely eventually leads to their lair.

The party knows for certain that there is an older dragon somewhere in the area because they saw it flying about the day before... and yet they decide to go tunnel crawling anyway, hell-bent on finding a dragon hoard.

So you put that older dragon (which is APL +4 or 5 at the moment) in the lair and see how it plays out.

Any characters that die have not been killed because the GM said so, but because player decisions lead the characters into a situation where "in over our heads" doesn't even start to cut it.


No GM should kill PCs on Purpose. But every GM who is worth his salt should almost kill the the PCs on a fairly regular basis.

In any given combat, at least one PC should be reduced to below zero hit points. This should be what the GM aims for. And it shouldn't be the same PC every time.

And the PCs who are careful, who do everything right, who avoid getting into a situation that can get them killed should be targeted periodically to be reduced to below zero.

The threat of death should exist, or combat is just another roleplaying opportunity.

They should never know that you control the dice rolls, you control the combat, that you are carefully, carefully making sure they don't die while at the same time making them think they might.

I know there are a lot of you who are howling now, saying that fudging die rolls is cheating, that doing anything but making random rolls defeats the purpose of the game, that it isn't playing fair.

But it isn't the GM's job to be fair. It's the GMs job to make the players' pulse rates go up, to make them jump up out of their seat, to make them jabber excitedly and howl at their muffed die rolls.

It's the GM's job to make them have the best experience they can have, every time they play.

That's what I try to do, every time I GM. And that's why my players keep coming back, over and over again.

Because I don't play fair. :)


Knocking a PC unconscious in every combat? I don't know about your players, but I find that obnoxious. If I found out a GM was aiming to exclude a player from the game every time a fight takes place, I'd either demand he cut it out or I'd just leave. Besides, story-wise, it ends up sounding ridiculous.

The brave heroes fought the troglodytes. The wizard was knocked unconscious, but the heroes won, and the wizard was healed.
The brave heroes then went into the next room to face the deadly gray ooze. The fighter was knocked unconscious, but the heroes won, and the fighter was healed.
The heroes advanced into the third room, and faced four ghouls. The ghouls knocked out the wizard and the fighter, but the cleric destroyed them. He healed his comrades, and they advanced.
The heroes fought a giant frog. The frog knocked out the rogue before being killed. Out of healing, the heroes made camp.
Next Day: Three more KO's! Hooray!

Also, I've never liked the idea of the GM cheating regularly. Sure, nudging a couple rolls to prevent an early end to the story is fine. But fudging just to make sure combats go as you like? The PCs have the right to win or fail thanks to their own ingenuity and luck, not thanks to the game master wanting them to make it to the BBEG. You aren't the only one telling a story here.

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